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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I finished my e-collar conditioning a few days ago, following the Mike Lardy DVD. MY dogs commands on the "check" rope are very crispy.

My issue now is, when I take him off the rope and walk him.......and he gets a hold of a strong scent or breaks after something.........I'll give him a here "Nick". After I give him the "Nick", it sort of just confuses him and makes him run further and crazier. The only way to get him back is to scream at the top of my lungs.

My question is, should I go back to collar conditioning? or should I be holding down the "Continous" button until he turns around and comes back to me?
 

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frankie1515 said:
My issue now is, when I take him off the rope and walk him.......and he gets a hold of a strong scent or breaks after something.........I'll give him a here "Nick". After I give him the "Nick", it sort of just confuses him and makes him run further and crazier. The only way to get him back is to scream at the top of my lungs.

My question is, should I go back to collar conditioning? or should I be holding down the "Continous" button until he turns around and comes back to me?

Nether, don't you have a whistle? Didn't you transfer the verbal "Sit" to a "Toot" on the whistle? Dog is at heel walking along with you. Dog takes off after a bunny, "Toot! sit" if dog is still on the run "Toot" Hard Nick "Toot Sit" Get the dog stopped with a sit, then call in with your here. If dog slows down and starts to look back at the bunny it was chasing that is the time for Here "Nick" here to keep the task at hand fresh in the mind. First you stop a running dog, then you call it in.
Ken Bora
 

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Ken Bora said:
frankie1515 said:
My issue now is, when I take him off the rope and walk him.......and he gets a hold of a strong scent or breaks after something.........I'll give him a here "Nick". After I give him the "Nick", it sort of just confuses him and makes him run further and crazier. The only way to get him back is to scream at the top of my lungs.

My question is, should I go back to collar conditioning? or should I be holding down the "Continous" button until he turns around and comes back to me?

Nether, don't you have a whistle? Didn't you transfer the verbal "Sit" to a "Toot" on the whistle? Dog is at heel walking along with you. Dog takes off after a bunny, "Toot! sit" if dog is still on the run "Toot" Hard Nick "Toot Sit" Get the dog stopped with a sit, then call in with your here. If dog slows down and starts to look back at the bunny it was chasing that is the time for Here "Nick" here to keep the task at hand fresh in the mind. First you stop a running dog, then you call it in.
Ken Bora[/quote

First you stop a running dog, then you call it in! Absolutely, the end all and be all. I am unable to take my dog to a retreat this weakend becaue he ran wild on a training day. He just ran faster than I could deal with, blew past the bird, ended up in the marsh, cut his pad severely, so now on leave for 3 weeks. My sit whistle failed, as did my come in. I should have been ready with the TT collar. So sad, so bad!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yes, I transfered my commands to whistle.

When the dog breaks after something, I give him the "toot toot toot", and if he doesn't responsed, I give him a "toot toot toot" again and then a "Nick"......, but like I said, it just makes him run crazier like he is confused and doesn't know what to do.

I will try a "Toot" (Sit) and a Hard Nick next time.
 

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he runs harder after the collar corection?
has he been exposed to a 5 burn in collar conditioning?
if not his response is the reason why.
he thinks lightning is comming out of the ground .
 

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frankie1515 said:
Yes, I transfered my commands to whistle.

When the dog breaks after something, I give him the "toot toot toot".
And that is why you fail. Think like a dog. "Toot" is sit, my butt is planted on the ground dad! "Toot, toot, toot", for most folk is known as a trill whistle. To the dog it means move. In most cases it means move to you because you have had a rope. But to the dog it is just move. Toot, butt on ground, Toot, toot, toot, move. SO when dog is running after the afore mentioned bunny and hears "Toot, toot, toot, it's little dog mind it thinking "Yea dad I am on the move" then ZAP! and dog is like "what the [email protected]&k! I was moving" and that is the confusion and circling you describe. On lead, work on single toot sits with heeling stick and collar with lots of praise and freebees mixed in as well as thumps with the stick and zaps with the collar. Like in that other thread, sit means sit.
Ken Bora
 

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I agree with Ken. Stop the dog first, then HERE.

If you are following Lardy, once you get done with sit-to-pile, and TT your dog will always stop with the sit whistle - almost no matter the distraction.
 

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If the dog is showing ANY confusion with the nick, I would have to question your CC at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for the replies!

First, my dog has never been exposed to a level five "Nick". We did all our conditioning at level 2.5......we started at level 4, but that was way, way to high.

Second, I'm not sure its my collar conditioning that is at fault, because I can go through the entire drills all over again and practically not find any faults.

Third, I think this person described the situation the best "he thinks lightning is comming out of the ground". Thats excatly how he reacts. Does this mean, I need to increase the level of the collar to make him stop?

Fourth, Ken Bora, I think you are 100% correct, with your explanation.....
It makes way more sense to make the dog stop and then call in. Thanks for your help!!
 

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The reason we collar condition is to give ourselves a tool to deal with a reluctant dog who does not want to come back. I collar condition my trainees two and a half months after the animal comes into formal training. Since it would be counterproductive to attempt training sit and come in the same lesson, my dogs will come back to me much better than they will sit, at this point. If this is your situation, you need to get a little creative, I would suggest making your dog perform the drill next to his open kennel door. You have only taught the drill, you have not put it into a pracrical application.
As for your dog not responding when called, you missed a golden opportunity to reinforce the "here" command as well as the whistle trill, you should find out exactly what it takes to make him abandon his interest and come back to you.
hope this helps
GG
 

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The collar will only enhance what the dog is doing at the time. If he's walking away and not listening to you.... adding the collar will only make him run away.

Angie
 

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Does Lardy go through debolting in his process? If not it may be something you could use as a tool. Mr. Graham has it as part of his CC process and from experiece it works. But from what was said about the sit whistle followed by a here is good advise. Try to recreate the situation and get a proper correction.
 

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achiro said:
I would have to question your CC at this point.
as would I
frankie1515 said:
my dog has never been exposed to a level five "Nick". We did all our conditioning at level 2.5......we started at level 4, but that was way, way to high.
This is wrong, start low and work up. Never use a level in the field that the dog has not been exposed to during conditioning.
TJ-WIS said:
Does Lardy go through debolting in his process?
Yes, I think it is time to review both the material, and the actual cc of the dog. More sits and debolt. Then the dog will know what it is getting zapped for in the field.
Ken Bora
 

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Frankie,

Please see your PM inbox.

Hang in there. If you are following Mike's program, please follow Mike's program. If I had my Volume I copies with me, I'd tell you specifically where Mike tells you that you are not ready to try doing what you have tried. You've proven to yourself that you guys are not ready.

As a young trainer with his first serious dog, using a tool as powerful as the e-collar, you owe it to yourself to follow Mike's program (since that's what you've chosen) to the letter and not skip steps or jump ahead.

Please remember to be fair to your dog. Remember how Mike tells you to make sure you clearly cover each step in his program before jumping ahead. Hopefully you DO see that what you had asked of your dog in this circumstance was jumping ahead.

You need to take this stuff in baby steps. Don't push the pup. Be fair. To my mind, dog training should almost be boring with respect to progress. I look at dog training a little bit like time-lapse photography. If you stare at a Spring Flower, you will swear that thing's not growing. But when you speed that tape up, you see the flower grow! If you are training your dog and expecting rapid progress, to quickly get to where the big dogs are, you are likely to make some mistakes, confuse pup, and ultimately do more damage than good.

If you just finished Collar Conditioning, you are not even close to being ready to stop on the trail of hot scent - without the aid of a lead.

Whatever step you are in with your pup while using MIke's program, you need to read that article every day. Read a few articles ahead regularly to see where it is that you are going. Don't "test" pup to see if he'll do something more advanced. If you're in kindergarten stay there until you are ready to graduate.

- Chris, who's right there in LardyKindergarten with you...and loving it!
 

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Chris Atkinson said:
If you are following Mike's program, please follow Mike's program. If I had my Volume I copies with me, I'd tell you specifically where Mike tells you that you are not ready to try doing what you have tried. You've proven to yourself that you guys are not ready.

If you just finished Collar Conditioning, you are not even close to being ready to stop on the trail of hot scent - without the aid of a lead.
If you look at Mike's articles Volume II, he has some articles on training a top notch pheasant dog. In those articles he states that you can never expect to stop a dog that is hot on the trail of a runner before it's through double-T, at least. I don't see how a running bunny is any less a distraction than a running rooster pheasant is, especially for a pup.

My dog is through transition and into advanced training. If he's hot on a runner, or a bird flushes - a sit TOOT will stop him dead, and he'll sit. A come-in whistle is no good he acts like he can't hear it. TOOT, then TOOT TOOT TOOT - works every time...
 

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Chris Atkinson said:
Frankie,

You need to take this stuff in baby steps. Don't push the pup. Be fair. To my mind, dog training should almost be boring with respect to progress. I look at dog training a little bit like time-lapse photography. If you stare at a Spring Flower, you will swear that thing's not growing. But when you speed that tape up, you see the flower grow! If you are training your dog and expecting rapid progress, to quickly get to where the big dogs are, you are likely to make some mistakes, confuse pup, and ultimately do more damage than good.

- Chris, who's right there in LardyKindergarten with you...and loving it!
Chris,
That paragraph is fricken awesome! Have you been hangin' with Quai Chang on the weekends? We all seem to type the same things over and over. It is so cool to see it said in such a fresh, spring like way. Good Job!
Ken Bora
 
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