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Discussion Starter #1
I had a discussion with my training group about carrier's and if they are alittle harder to get under control and are they better markers than non carriers.


What does everyone think?
 

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I think that there is very likely no connection between marking ability and EIC. -Paul
 

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There are some people that believe that the carriers are better markers. I don't know that to be true - or not. I had not heard the purported connection between carriers and line manners. It's all above my pay grade
 

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I had a discussion with my training group about carrier's and if they are alittle harder to get under control and are they better markers than non carriers.


What does everyone think?
What evidence is their belief based on, what is the sampling size. Based on my personal experience with quite a few dogs I’m calling BS on that theory.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What evidence is their belief based on, what is the sampling size. Based on my personal experience with quite a few dogs I’m calling BS on that theory.
It was just small talk at the end of our session
No evidence to prove anything
I have a one year old male out of FC AFC Tucked Away At Rivers Edge that is a carrier and a marking fool and a total fire breather at the line so that is how it came up
Thought i could get an honest opinion on here
 

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Thought i could get an honest opinion on here
In my honest opinion, EIC status being related to marking ability is just field trial superstition.
 

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It was just small talk at the end of our session
No evidence to prove anything
I have a one year old male out of FC AFC Tucked Away At Rivers Edge that is a carrier and a marking fool and a total fire breather at the line so that is how it came up
Thought i could get an honest opinion on here
I think it is probably a lot of wishful thinking and maybe for the benefit of the breed because for a while no one, and I mean, no one, wanted an eic carrier.


Glad to hear Cash is doing well. Sounds like his mom... also an EIC carrier. LOL ...:) Hard to believe they are a year old tomorrow.
 

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It was just small talk at the end of our session
No evidence to prove anything
I have a one year old male out of FC AFC Tucked Away At Rivers Edge that is a carrier and a marking fool and a total fire breather at the line so that is how it came up
Thought i could get an honest opinion on here
Tucker is not an EIC carrier. HuntingLabPedigree
 

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It was just small talk at the end of our session
No evidence to prove anything
I have a one year old male out of FC AFC Tucked Away At Rivers Edge that is a carrier and a marking fool and a total fire breather at the line so that is how it came up
Thought i could get an honest opinion on here
I spent a week with Tucker and Alex in Oregon pre-national training. From what I remember, he was not a "total fire breather" but a pretty balanced animal, great marker, and one hell of a dog.
 

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What evidence is their belief based on, what is the sampling size. Based on my personal experience with quite a few dogs I’m calling BS on that theory.
I'm in total agreement. Unless there is a peer reviewed study, of which I know none at the moment, this is just heresay
 

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What evidence is their belief based on, what is the sampling size. Based on my personal experience with quite a few dogs I’m calling BS on that theory.
Just out of curiosity, historically how many great dogs might have been EIC carriers or affected and bred to dogs with the same situation? I have no idea when all the testing began and how thorough it was years ago. Ive looked up great dogs from the past and there is no listing on EIC. Just curious with all the dogs, trainers and vets youve been around in your life.
 

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I had a discussion with my training group about carrier's and if they are alittle harder to get under control and are they better markers than non carriers.


What does everyone think?
Well....Contrary to popular belief, I may own an EIC carrier. His daddy was known as an outlaw and suspected to throw vocal dogs. He is the polar opposite of his daddy's reputation. Solid as a rock and quiet as a church mouse on the line. I'm not 100 percent certain that he is a carrier. His breeder had the pups tested. But I bought him at 3 months old and the paperwork had been misplaced or lost, not that it would have made a difference either way. While he is an above average marker at times ( not always consistent ), I would actually like him to have been a wee bit more animated at the line. It's really ironic because he has stellar line manners but can't seem to settle down in the house, always on the go and always in your face. I wouldn't take a million buck for him though!!
 

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Here is a very non-scientific answer for you.

On the "Stud Dog" list that was created last year...(this was a list created to help identify all FC/AFC or FC or AFC studs currently available for natural, fresh, or frozen semen)... there are/were 80 total Studs listed. (I don't think I have the latest file..so it's probably been updated since I last looked at it)... anyway....

80 Total Studs (with an FC or AFC title, or FC/AFC, or Canadian champion titles)
5 Carriers
60 Clear
15 unknown EIC status at the time of spreadsheet creation
 

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I like to play the supposed. I will say initially when the EIC test came out it was challenging to find FC AFC type studs that were not carriers. This was pretty much a big deal for me becuase all my girls were carriers too. Then we have Gradey and a few other studs that were clear; those studs got bred a bunch and we lost a lot of genetic input from carriers simply becuase they were carriers. Now most stud dogs are clear; they still can mark, and do everything the carrier dog could do. But I do wonder why initially when the test came out a majority of the Big time dogs were carriers; prehaps some traits did indeed pass along with that EIC recessive. I do remeber the reason we have the EIC test is becuase carrierxcarrier breeding were resulting in EIC affected dogs enough for someone to take notice and develop a test. We all know how unobservant people in general are (the dog over-heated etc); so the condition and gene were there with some frequency.
 

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Just out of curiosity, historically how many great dogs might have been EIC carriers or affected and bred to dogs with the same situation? I have no idea when all the testing began and how thorough it was years ago. Ive looked up great dogs from the past and there is no listing on EIC. Just curious with all the dogs, trainers and vets youve been around in your life.
We were aware of dogs who “went down” (collapsed) in the late 70s but there were very few dogs and most episodes seemed to occur during basic training. The syndrome exploded in the early to mid 90s eventually leading to it’s clinical identification as Exercise Induced Collapse. The search for a cause included diagnoses of myasthenia gravis, hypoglycemia, Addison’s disease, cardiac disease, malignant hyperthermia, and some unidentified neuromuscular disorder. The familial tendency was recognized and therefore it was assumed to be a genetic disorder. The genetic mutation was identified in 2007 leading to the introduction of the genetic test by the University of Minnesota Neuromuscular Laboratory. Prior to the test identification of carriers was impossible but some popular sires were implicated but the number is purely speculative. Simply stated the manifestation of the disease is the result of depletion of the neuromuscular transmitter, a chemical secreted by the nerve which is received by receptors on the muscle, producing muscular activity. There is wide variation in the amount of activity required to induce collapse in affected dogs. Some tolerate moderate to extreme activity without displaying symptoms while others can collapse with minimal activity. Observers of affected dogs believed excitement seemed to produce or exacerbate collapsing episodes. My memory is not well served with regards to dogs known to collapse prior to identification of the syndrome and subsequent testing and even if it was identifying those dogs now would be a useless enterprise. I do know one great bitch with over 200 all age points who was affected but never collapsed. The evolution of EIC from sporadic occurrence to almost epidemic occurrence was enhanced by the widespread acceptance and use of frozen semen and popularly used sires. The idea that carrying a gene mutation associated with neuromuscular activation plays any part in a complex activity like marking ability requires a huge leap of faith without any even vague evidence.
 

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Thanks for the input
Alex and Tucker live 5 mins from me i know how awesome he is!!
Do people stay away from stud carrier's?

His mom is a carrier @Don Smith
Thanks for the clarification.

I've been talking to Alex this week. I may have a Tucker breeding later this year.
 

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We were aware of dogs who “went down” (collapsed) in the late 70s but there were very few dogs and most episodes seemed to occur during basic training. The syndrome exploded in the early to mid 90s eventually leading to it’s clinical identification as Exercise Induced Collapse. The search for a cause included diagnoses of myasthenia gravis, hypoglycemia, Addison’s disease, cardiac disease, malignant hyperthermia, and some unidentified neuromuscular disorder. The familial tendency was recognized and therefore it was assumed to be a genetic disorder. The genetic mutation was identified in 2007 leading to the introduction of the genetic test by the University of Minnesota Neuromuscular Laboratory. Prior to the test identification of carriers was impossible but some popular sires were implicated but the number is purely speculative. Simply stated the manifestation of the disease is the result of depletion of the neuromuscular transmitter, a chemical secreted by the nerve which is received by receptors on the muscle, producing muscular activity. There is wide variation in the amount of activity required to induce collapse in affected dogs. Some tolerate moderate to extreme activity without displaying symptoms while others can collapse with minimal activity. Observers of affected dogs believed excitement seemed to produce or exacerbate collapsing episodes. My memory is not well served with regards to dogs known to collapse prior to identification of the syndrome and subsequent testing and even if it was identifying those dogs now would be a useless enterprise. I do know one great bitch with over 200 all age points who was affected but never collapsed. The evolution of EIC from sporadic occurrence to almost epidemic occurrence was enhanced by the widespread acceptance and use of frozen semen and popularly used sires. The idea that carrying a gene mutation associated with neuromuscular activation plays any part in a complex activity like marking ability requires a huge leap of faith without any even vague evidence.
Thanks so much for coming back to RTF, Dr. Ed. You are such a wealth of knowledge both in veterinary medical issues but also in field trials, as well as anything dogs, it seems. I always look forward to your comments.

Your comment above is the first time I've ever seen a reference to malignant hyperthermia in Labs, here or anywhere else. Almost twenty years ago, I had a wonderful Little Man daughter, one of the best dogs I ever had. She finished her Master title very early. A real fire breather. One example of how amazing she was is a late September Master test she ran in. First series, land, was a difficult triple and a double blind. The blinds looked well over the rule distance (this is before it was changed from not normally more than 100 yards), so I put a range finder on them. One was 165 yards; one was 170. Both were intermittent low to moderate cover. Both were difficult terrains - no billiard table stuff. The 170 was also along a fairly severe slope, easy for a dog to run downhill and get off line. She not only ran the marks clean, but lined both of the blinds. I was amazed. Anyway, in late July 2008, I was training early morning trying to get ready for the Super Retriever Series. She was the first dog I ran that day. Although I suspected it would be very hot and humid later in the day, I happened to glance at the thermometer in my truck just as I got out. It was only 72 degrees. I ran her on 3 short marks and 1 short blind and then put her up. Just after she jumped into the hole in the trailer, she collapsed. I rushed her to my vet. Her temp was 105. She responded, but my vet was concerned about brain swelling and there was a shortage on the drug to reduce that. He was out and so were many others, Long story short, within an hour, I took her to the big specialty emergency clinic here. They had the drug. They worked on her throughout the day and into the night. Just as I got up the next morning to go see her, one of the vets called to say she had passed. She was only 4 1/2. One of the vets who worked on her said she suspected malignant hyperthermia. I'd never even heard of it. Needless to say, I was devastated. I never even got to take a litter from her.

On the EIC issue, about 20 years ago, I trained a very nice FC sired male owned by a doctor in southern Ohio. By the time he brought me the dog, he had already tested as affected for EIC, so the owner had him neutered. Despite the diagnosis, I never saw him exhibit any issues. The doctor, who owned hundreds of acres, said the only time he'd ever seen the dog go down was after the dog and his coonhound were running deer. JEEZ!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for the clarification.

I've been talking to Alex this week. I may have a Tucker breeding later this year.
Do you mind pming me your bitchs pedigree i love Tucker pups
My buddy has a Tucker daughter out of monte's AFC bitch that is coming along nicely also just a fee weeks younger than my male
 

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EIC is a devastating genetic disorder, and until one has experienced the heartbreak of an exceptionally talented dog suffering from it, they can't really understand how bad it is.

Belle's career resulted in over 500 HRC points, 340 NAHRA points, MH at 2 years old, QAA at 30 months. She only failed 3 Hunt Tests in her entire career, 2 of those were my fault due to handler error.

She went down several times during all age training, each time more catastrophically than the previous time. The last time, I thought she might die. Mental stress and heat were both triggers I identified. Through careful management during training, she was able to continue to participate and excel in Hunt Tests.

At the time of her birth, testing was not available and the disease was just beginning to be clinically investigated. Her breeder was a good friend, and could not have known what was lurking in the genetic make-up of the Sire and Dam.

I still wonder, to this day, what she would have been capable of, absent this disease.

I still worry, to this day, that some people are breeding carriers irresponsibly.

I hope no one on here ever has to go through what she and I did.
 
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