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Discussion Starter #21
Well over 500 HRC points, 340 NAHRA points, MH at 2 years old, QAA at 30 months. She only failed 3 Hunt Tests in her entire career. She went down several times during all age training, each time more catastrophically than the previous time. The last time, I thought she might die. Mental stress and heat were both triggers I identified.

I still worry, to this day, that some people are breeding carriers irresponsibly.
With today's testing it should eliminate Eic affected offspring unless the breeder is uneducated on the effects or just doesnt care.

A big thanks to DR ED for his insight on this
 

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This is for the new folks on this forum. Good information to be found here by the leading researchers of this genetic disorder.
 

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Thanks so much for coming back to RTF, Dr. Ed. You are such a wealth of knowledge both in veterinary medical issues but also in field trials, as well as anything dogs, it seems. I always look forward to your comments.

Your comment above is the first time I've ever seen a reference to malignant hyperthermia in Labs, here or anywhere else. Almost twenty years ago, I had a wonderful Little Man daughter, one of the best dogs I ever had. She finished her Master title very early. A real fire breather. One example of how amazing she was is a late September Master test she ran in. First series, land, was a difficult triple and a double blind. The blinds looked well over the rule distance (this is before it was changed from not normally more than 100 yards), so I put a range finder on them. One was 165 yards; one was 170. Both were intermittent low to moderate cover. Both were difficult terrains - no billiard table stuff. The 170 was also along a fairly severe slope, easy for a dog to run downhill and get off line. She not only ran the marks clean, but lined both of the blinds. I was amazed. Anyway, in late July 2008, I was training early morning trying to get ready for the Super Retriever Series. She was the first dog I ran that day. Although I suspected it would be very hot and humid later in the day, I happened to glance at the thermometer in my truck just as I got out. It was only 72 degrees. I ran her on 3 short marks and 1 short blind and then put her up. Just after she jumped into the hole in the trailer, she collapsed. I rushed her to my vet. Her temp was 105. She responded, but my vet was concerned about brain swelling and there was a shortage on the drug to reduce that. He was out and so were many others, Long story short, within an hour, I took her to the big specialty emergency clinic here. They had the drug. They worked on her throughout the day and into the night. Just as I got up the next morning to go see her, one of the vets called to say she had passed. She was only 4 1/2. One of the vets who worked on her said she suspected malignant hyperthermia. I'd never even heard of it. Needless to say, I was devastated. I never even got to take a litter from her.

On the EIC issue, about 20 years ago, I trained a very nice FC sired male owned by a doctor in southern Ohio. By the time he brought me the dog, he had already tested as affected for EIC, so the owner had him neutered. Despite the diagnosis, I never saw him exhibit any issues. The doctor, who owned hundreds of acres, said the only time he'd ever seen the dog go down was after the dog and his coonhound were running deer. JEEZ!
My then friend now spouse was teaching at Auburn University CVM and she did a research project on field trial Labradors measuring body temperature and an array of blood chemicals and electrolytes at rest and after performing a typical all age field trial set up in search of a clue as to the origin of collapsing episodes. Normal dogs typically spike body temperatures of 104-105 degrees after working but there is a thermoregulating system in the cerebellum which resets the temperature so normal dogs will reset to 103 or less fairly quickly. The fact that your dog collapsed at 105 and her temperature persisted suggests there was more in play physiologically. It certainly could have been EIC. In the late 90s we had a wonderful young male FC-AFC who on a couple of occasions got wobbly in the field. One day after hunting a flyer he collapsed and died. I was not present but got the phone call while having lunch at a popular Italian restaurant which I never set foot in again. I am certain given all we learned subsequently he was EIC affected.
 

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The back yard breeders need educated. They need to stop breeding labs but I doubt that will happen so they need educated. A couple years ago a coworkers wife was going to buy a lab puppy off face book.

I explained health clearances to him and his wife. One litter they were looking at I asked about health clearances on the face book page. I got a snotty response from the breeder, it is in the ad they are both AKC labs. I was like WTF?

I nicely explained about EIC to her, and that AKC means nothing for health clearances. Her response was our friend had an AKC lab that hunted and they did too and both were healthy and the puppies are great. The last part was basically I was crazy. Gee, I wonder why EIC won’t go away? The sad thing was I think they sold all the pups for $900, if I remember correctly.
 

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I had a discussion with my training group about carrier's and if they are alittle harder to get under control and are they better markers than non carriers.


What does everyone think?
What my recollection was, seasoned owner/handlers noted that many of the greatest FC titled producers were EIC carriers. Some “speculated” maybe the EIC gene traveled with great markers. However, there is no single marking gene known or even a group of genes known so it’s all speculation at this point but some made the jump to fact. This rose to importance when some felt it best to entirely eliminate all EIC carriers, and the intelligent chose to use the test to eliminate producing affected pups and preserve the genetics. There still is considerable ignorance out there because EIC was found to exist in @ 30-35% of Labradors including field, conformation, and European Labradors so it actually goes way back in generations. Historically several dog breeds have almost been lost trying to banish a single deleterious gene, resulting in even worse genes emerging.

Actually you can review some of the older threads on EIC brought up on RTF to see this thought process at that time was held by more than a few people as far as thinking carriers were more talented.
 

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My then friend now spouse was teaching at Auburn University CVM and she did a research project on field trial Labradors measuring body temperature and an array of blood chemicals and electrolytes at rest and after performing a typical all age field trial set up in search of a clue as to the origin of collapsing episodes. Normal dogs typically spike body temperatures of 104-105 degrees after working but there is a thermoregulating system in the cerebellum which resets the temperature so normal dogs will reset to 103 or less fairly quickly. The fact that your dog collapsed at 105 and her temperature persisted suggests there was more in play physiologically. It certainly could have been EIC. In the late 90s we had a wonderful young male FC-AFC who on a couple of occasions got wobbly in the field. One day after hunting a flyer he collapsed and died. I was not present but got the phone call while having lunch at a popular Italian restaurant which I never set foot in again. I am certain given all we learned subsequently he was EIC affected.
Thanks. I always look forward to your comments.
 

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The back yard breeders need educated. They need to stop breeding labs but I doubt that will happen so they need educated.
I agree but I doubt that will happen. They either ignore or don't care. And then we've got some pushing dilutes as purebred Labs, encouraged by AKC continuing to register them despite agreeing with LRC on June 13, 2017 in a Joint Statement that dilutes (silver) Labs are not purebred.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
"I had a discussion with my training group about carrier's and if they are a little harder to get under control and are they better markers than non carriers."

What was the concensus? I am searching for an excuse. :love:
Hows the saying go?
Run a fast dog slow and a slow dog fast!
 

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I bought a pup back in 2003 that had a high powered, well titled pedigree. The breeder's
first pick was affected and ended up at Auburn University where they were studying EIC.
Later, when testing was available, my 2nd pup pick was found to be a carrier. And it
eventually became rather obvious that there were no (that is zero) clear pups of any kind
coming from that highly titled field trial retriever.

Coincidentlly, my young, black female Lab is an EIC carrier. She stepped "right on" six
singles thrown into cover today....knew exactly where they were. She was first pick black
female…..the only black female. Breeder said Gigi was a carrier. I told him that was not a
big deal and OK with me. We are a good match. Did my very last litter years ago.
 

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We were aware of dogs who “went down” (collapsed) in the late 70s but there were very few dogs and most episodes seemed to occur during basic training. The syndrome exploded in the early to mid 90s eventually leading to it’s clinical identification as Exercise Induced Collapse. The search for a cause included diagnoses of myasthenia gravis, hypoglycemia, Addison’s disease, cardiac disease, malignant hyperthermia, and some unidentified neuromuscular disorder. The familial tendency was recognized and therefore it was assumed to be a genetic disorder. The genetic mutation was identified in 2007 leading to the introduction of the genetic test by the University of Minnesota Neuromuscular Laboratory. Prior to the test identification of carriers was impossible but some popular sires were implicated but the number is purely speculative. Simply stated the manifestation of the disease is the result of depletion of the neuromuscular transmitter, a chemical secreted by the nerve which is received by receptors on the muscle, producing muscular activity. There is wide variation in the amount of activity required to induce collapse in affected dogs. Some tolerate moderate to extreme activity without displaying symptoms while others can collapse with minimal activity. Observers of affected dogs believed excitement seemed to produce or exacerbate collapsing episodes. My memory is not well served with regards to dogs known to collapse prior to identification of the syndrome and subsequent testing and even if it was identifying those dogs now would be a useless enterprise. I do know one great bitch with over 200 all age points who was affected but never collapsed. The evolution of EIC from sporadic occurrence to almost epidemic occurrence was enhanced by the widespread acceptance and use of frozen semen and popularly used sires. The idea that carrying a gene mutation associated with neuromuscular activation plays any part in a complex activity like marking ability requires a huge leap of faith without any even vague evidence.
Thank you sir for the response. I knew you would give a very comprehensive answer to my question. You, along with a few others are the main reason I keep looking through this site. I love dogs so much and also love the history of the sport. While I know my role and place in the dog world pecking order, theres nothing I love more than watching, learning and being a part of this sport. thank you again and I hope some day to meet you and Mrs Judy!
 

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I would have no problem breeding a carrier if good enough. Just make sure of the sire's status. I had an EIC affected that was one of the ones tested early on by U of Minn. Information also went to Loyola. 3 HOF grandparents.The other grandma was not titled but produced a CNAFTCH/CNFTCH and several FC/AFCs in the states. My girl only went down once hunting. Could not get out of a holding blind in a test without getting wobbly. Never ran another test.Ok in training with keeping an eye on her. She went down in training at 7 months old which is when we started getting her checked out. EIC was pretty much unknown then.
 
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My then friend now spouse was teaching at Auburn University CVM and she did a research project on field trial Labradors measuring body temperature and an array of blood chemicals and electrolytes at rest and after performing a typical all age field trial set up in search of a clue as to the origin of collapsing episodes. Normal dogs typically spike body temperatures of 104-105 degrees after working but there is a thermoregulating system in the cerebellum which resets the temperature so normal dogs will reset to 103 or less fairly quickly. The fact that your dog collapsed at 105 and her temperature persisted suggests there was more in play physiologically. It certainly could have been EIC. In the late 90s we had a wonderful young male FC-AFC who on a couple of occasions got wobbly in the field. One day after hunting a flyer he collapsed and died. I was not present but got the phone call while having lunch at a popular Italian restaurant which I never set foot in again. I am certain given all we learned subsequently he was EIC affected.
I am guessing that that would have been "The Big Dipper".
 

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I am guessing that that would have been "The Big Dipper".
Nope wasn’t him, he never evidenced anything we later attributed to EIC, an acute cardiac arrest after having a good job on an Open land triple, no evidence of distress, went back to the truck, collapsed, and died. In the prime of life, Double Header, might have been a great dog if he had a normal life expectancy.
 

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Dr Ed said , The idea that carrying a gene mutation associated with neuromuscular activation plays any part in a complex activity like marking ability requires a huge leap of faith without any even vague evidence.

I would agree with that 100%. That said many dogs
That I know who were either Carriers or affected were also Fantastic markers , not a large pool
Just my Experience
 

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That is nothing but an old wise tail! I have a friend who always will ask for a yellow factored eic carrier, because the best dogs of all time were so.
 

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I think it is a mistake to ignore carriers as studs. In fact, I often gravitate to them. Too many times it comes down to what is gonna sell dogs at the expense of what could produce dogs that win.
 
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