EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back>?

I've never understood why a breeder would want a dog back that cannot be trained or bred due to health issues. Spay/neuter should be enough. The only reason I can imagine is that the breeder may think you are now attached and don't want to have the dog put down or taken back - so they won't have to honor a guarantee. But in this case of EIC, neither the owner or the breeder knows that it is NFC Drake, yet it's implied by the fact that the breeder wants to give you another pup out of her bitch in a year or two - can't figure that either.

As for whether EIC is covered in the guarantee or not - the right thing for a breeder to do if a dog cannot be used for it's intended purpose (whether trials, HTs or hunting) due to inherited disease, is to be willing to work something out with the buyer for either a new pup or some portion of the purchase price refunded. In this case it seems the breeder has that inclination but I don't agree with the fly the dog back & examination. Just not enough information to vote, however.

achiro said:

...I research the pups I buy. I know everything possible genetically that may pop up before I write the check.

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You may well do your due diligence, & all should, but since many breeders and stud owners likely have not done the prior research or are not willing to tell you everything they know their dog has produced, I doubt you know quite as much as you may think. But that's the environment we live in - especially when it comes to inherited disease that many know are there but refuse to discuss.

achiro said:

...MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.

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Misplaced logic, I think. First of all, we don't test for OFA clearances or CERF results, professionals in the vet medicine field make observations & predictions that result in an OFA & CERF status yet I'm guessing you would take a refund for a pup not passing either. Next, the idea that medical professionals & researchers require a "test" to prove or diagnose is both a misunderstanding of the process of medical diagnosis in many cases and is incorrect. There are very few diseases & conditions where a "test" exists to "prove" a disease or condition. Diagnosis is more generally done but eliminating other diseases, classifying a disease by it's known symptoms, by observing measurable symptoms & bodily parameters - and by observing the ancestry in the case of inherited disease. Research into EIC has done all of these things & many dogs have been diagnosed with EIC. To claim EIC doesn't exist or claim its observance in progeny can't be known by breeders & stud owners because it isn't listed on an AKC pedigree is to bury your head in the sand - and gives the unethical all the room they need to continue to produce progeny that either carry or are affected by this or other awful inherited conditions. Notwithstanding the logic of your conscience, I would hope that breeders & stud owners that price their pups or service on the titles and performance of their dogs would be willing to reduce that price when it is determined that the pup doesn't have that potential (& never did) because of inherited disease.

To read this tread ALL breeders are doing everything right & the best they can. ALL buyers wanting a refund for an inherited disease are classified as accepting no responsibility.

First, ALL breeders are not doing everything they can. Several high profile stud owners know they are producing pups with EIC from multiple bitches, yet they continue to take stud fees - that's NOT doing "everything they can". Worse, these same high profile stud owners don't tell their clients about these prior progeny results, even when asked while falling all over themselves to sing the praises of anything positive about their stud. It's "show me the money" & I'm out of here.

Same for some less than forthright breeders. So why guarantee anything? Because these unethical stud owners & breeders are giving the good ones a bad name & causing many pup buyers to suspect them all. Further, these $3500+ pups are represented as particularily suited for the tasks of a working retriever, so if they can't do anything but sit on the couch due to the breeding itself (not what happens after the pups is sold), there should be some equitable adjustment in the price to represent the couch potato, his keep during his first 6-8 wks, etc (& based upon the circumstances this may include both the breeder & stud owner).

And it's not a question of IF EIC is inherited, it's just a matter of how (just read the published research). This is no different than the environment that has previously surrounded CNM. Many knew of dogs that passed CNM but the few unethical stud owners & breeders of some of these carrier dogs kept right on - business as usual, "show me the money". The CNM test just shows them for what they were all along - but more importantly it does give the guy (the ethical breeder, stud owner, & buyer) doing due diligence, a means to "prove" what he suspected but couldn't get anyone to admit.