EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back>?

14249 Views 99 Replies 33 Participants Last post by Latisha, Mar 23, 2006

splashdownoutfitters

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2006

I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?

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hhlabradors

· #19 · Mar 18, 2006

Re: EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back&

splashdownoutfitters said:
I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?

I find it interesting that the subject of the poll is "should the breeder buy the dog back" but the actual question is "should I have to send the dog back" It's not the same issue.

The circumstances are ones that weren't forseen, yet the breeder's willing to work with you on it. Count yourself fortunate - she wouldn't have to. I don't blame her for wanting more information in regards to what her breeding program has produced.

I also say "Kudos to the breeder." Count yourself lucky that you can get out of this for $300, if out of it's what you want. Dogs are gambles, every one of them, in some way. If you want to play, you have to assume some of the risk.

hhlabradors

· #28 · Mar 19, 2006

M Remington said:
probably feels that until a genetic marker for hip dysplasia and PRA are found, diet must be the cause.

Have you checked the Optigen site lately?

hhlabradors

· #34 · Mar 19, 2006

h england said:
lyle i allso had a dog in the initial testing this dog can live as a pet but you allways have to watch for kids throwing stuff like balls frisbees etc as she goes down easily my brother know owns the dog and had to save her while swimming because kids threw a ball into the water i have a friend who has an affected dog that cannot play with other dogs without having an attack my thoughts are any dog that has produced eic should not be bred again everyone says for the betterment of the breed than prove it dont knowingly breed crap it is no different than cnm anyone breeding untested bitches or studs are ignorant to breeding labs it does not matter how good the dog is its playing russian roulette at the expence of the breed

h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?

hhlabradors

· #47 · Mar 19, 2006

HarryWilliams said:
hhlabradors said:

h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?

Click to expand...

Next thing, you'll want him to be wearing a clean shirt and saying please and thank you!!! :wink: HPW

Well, it's not like I asked him to take his hat off in the house and his boots off at the door... :wink:

hhlabradors

· #53 · Mar 20, 2006

achiro said:
Stud owners are financially liable now? Thats one I've never heard before. :roll:

Its very easy. If you as the buyer want to have a guarantee against every genetic problem(and ones that may or may not be genetic) good luck finding a quality pup. I know there are a few, I'm sure that the ones who have posted here that they cover anything have fine pups. But to expect someone to refund for a health issue that may or may not be genetic, and has no way to know more about it than the buyer, is beyond IMO.

Everyone owes JQP when something goes wrong. Everyone is responsible. Except him.

We are supposed to put in years of blood, sweat and tears. Wash out dogs ourselves, lose mountains of money. Invest thousands upon thousands of dollars. Test for everything known and somehow be absolutely all-knowing about stuff that isn't known. Wrack our brains, lose sleep, put our bitches' lives at risk. Sell absolutely perfect puppies, guaranteed, for a few measly hundred bucks (because God forbid, anyone make a profit) and still be the mattress padding for any potential stumble the buyer may make. And then put up with these same buyers getting on the internet and trashing our dogs' reputations and our own?

Hog wash. For some people, no matter what you do, it's just never good enough.

I am "owed" "replacement" puppies I won't collect. I've never taken, or asked for, money back. The breeders did the best they could, I did the best I could, and like lots of other things in life, there were unexpected curve balls.

I just put my Big Girl Panties on and decided to deal with it.

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hhlabradors

· #55 · Mar 20, 2006

M Remington said:
You're either independently wealthy or trying for sainthood. If I drop $3500 for a puppy, in addition to a refund if anything crops up, I even expect his crap to smell like roses!

Thanks for the warning... :wink:

(Note to self: Headache and ulcer alert: Do not sell to...)

hhlabradors

· #57 · Mar 20, 2006

Angie B said:
then maybe they should own a goldfish. Do those come with a guarantee???? :?

Angie

If they do, then I am owed a LOT of goldfish! I can't keep those darn things alive for anything...

hhlabradors

· #62 · Mar 20, 2006

Bill Watson said:
This is Cleo We feel that we have a very generous guarantee and honor hips and eyes. We also take into consideration other problems that might arise and deal with it as equitiably as we can. Know this about me though, I am as nice and as easy to work with as YOU allow me, BUT get ugly and unreasonable and the 'head bitch in the kennel' will come out from under the porch and bite you on the leg.

Cleo, I am doing the wave for you here in Wisconsin. That's exactly the way it should be!

Congratulations on the wonderful CNM reports!

Regards,

hhlabradors

· #72 · Mar 21, 2006

h4everything said:
I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.

Entropion is a completely different thing than EIC. It should have been identified prior to sending you the pup, if not by the breeder or the vet on the well puppy check, then when the pups' eyes were examined (you did do your homework and get a puppy from a breeder who gets the pups' eyes examined, right?)

Entropion is also repaired by a surgery that is not overly cost-prohibitive. If you wanted a potential breeding pup, you shouldn't have been sent that one. If you didn't plan to breed, the surgery should have been done before the pup was shipped and you should have gotten the pup on limited registration and a spay/neuter contract.

hhlabradors

· #75 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
A dog with surgically corrected entropion will have a CERF number, and no "breeder's option" notation. So it is possible for someone to get a dog's eyes corrected (tacked, when they are young), keep mum, and CERF the dog into eternity.

Has been an issue in the Chessie breed for some time.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Good point. I guess I've always figured there are ways to get around most everything if someone's devious enough, but I've not directed a lot of energy into worrying about that. I suppose I may be a bit naive.

I guess one of the things I'd hoped the entropion puppy buyer would take away from my post is that if the breeder had taken the pups in for an eye exam prior to sending them to their new homes, his/her situation would have been a lot less likely to happen. The breeder would have had to knowingly put an affected pup on the plane to an unsuspecting buyer. Perhaps he did or perhaps he didn't. With an eye exam, it would have been documented.

This goes back to the previous posts about buyers having the responsibility to do their homework and pick their breeders carefully. Not just by pedigree of the litter, not just by price of the pup, or location, or color, or whatever, but they need to read up on the things good breeders should do and and why and be certain that they're comfortable with the protocols of the breeders they choose.

You can choose not to worry because the dam's CERF isn't current, you can choose not to worry about elbow clearances, or puppy eye exams or whatever, but then you cannot choose to feel sorry for yourself and complain when your choices come back to bite you in the butt.

JMO of course :wink:

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hhlabradors

· #76 · Mar 21, 2006

What does the parents having all of their health certs have to do with the puppies getting eye exams before they went to their new homes? Were you told that the puppy had had the eyes examined and passed and then sent the entropion pup?

h (that's becoming a common name around here...) if you aren't informed enough to be asking these questions of breeders and giving their answers serious consideration, then, with all due respect, you aren't informed enough to be thinking about breeding and bettering the breed even if your bitch had turned out to be the most fabulous in the world.

hhlabradors

· #79 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
Eleanor;

Again, all great advice...if we were talking about Labradors.

AFAIK, I am about the only Chessie breeder on the planet who does CERF exams on entire litters before placement.

Likewise, we are just NOW gaining traction with elbow certifications.

So the idea that "you didn't do your due diligence, too bad for you" doesn't wash.

Lisa

Well, that's pretty sad.

Still, I think it does wash. You do your research to find out what problems there are in the breed. You do your research to find out what can be done and what breeders are actually doing. At some point, you make your decision to 1) hang in there until you find the only breeder on the planet who does things the way you want, 2) you find a breed where you feel you'll be taking a more acceptable level of risk, or 3) you take your chances with your eyes open and you deal with the consequences.

With the internet there is good information readily available to those who put in the effort on the front end. I (obviously) know little about Chessies, but I bet I could get at least a good basic education about them if I wanted to.

I recently bought a field pup. I have no complaints about the transaction or about the breeder, but in the "field world" some of the breeders do things a little differently than I would insist on in my usual conformation circle. I know the areas where I relaxed my diligence, and will not be posting any polls or personal attacks if it turns out that I made a mistake in altering my expectations. My own fault, nobody forced me...

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hhlabradors

· #81 · Mar 21, 2006

alaskan peakes said:
All dogs that come from my (future :wink: ) kennel, will have eyes checked along with their regular vet check-up. My breeding stock will have eyes cerfed yearly, and hips AND elbows ofa cleared as well.

Juli

Awesome.

hhlabradors

· #83 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
Eleanor;

I hear what you are saying, and I agree...up to a point.

That point is where the informed use facts to dupe people, or shirk their responsibilities. In other words, saying "well, it's easy to fix by surgery, so I'm not going to worry about it" breed the dog/bitch and keep mum, mum, mum. When a pup crops up with it "Gee, I never had THAT happen before (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)!"

The unfortunate downside is, that the newcomer to the breed then has his/her pup's eyelids doctored, gets a CERF #, and then breeds the dog/bitch, and keeps mum. What the heck, everybody else is doing it, I can too!

Or worse (and I know of actual cases where this has happened), the affected pups in a litter get their eyes repaired before being sold. The buyer never even KNOWS the pup had a problem. They later breed the dog, and SURPRISE!

It's a sad situation, and it's not going to change until the majority of puppy buyers demand elbow clearances, thyroid clearances, CERF exams on the pups, etc. And that's never going to happen.

Lisa

Lisa, I appreciate you sharing this information. I guess it goes to show that all threads have the potential to do some good from an educational standpoint.

You've never come across as anything but informed and ethical, so you must have times when you're ready to tear your hair out. But good on you for doing the right thing, and hopefully, more and more people like Juli will get on board.

Meanwhile, if the buyers DON'T start to demand the right things be done by the pups they buy, then (where is my dead horse society mug?? :wink: ) they are contributing to the problem.

I look forward to the day when you guys post that you've made progress in this respect. It seems like a great breed and deserves to be well taken care of.

hhlabradors

· #85 · Mar 21, 2006

Jason, from what you're saying, I'd have to agree that you were being very reasonable. I'm sorry that you had such a lousy experience.

Eleanor

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