I would like to ask the breeders responding to this post again, are you guys having that many pups with genetic problems ?popping up? that you can't afford monetarily or ethically to take responsibility for what you are producing? The folks here are not talking about a fat dog but one that drags its legs after a couple retrieves.
EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back>?
I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?
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How about ethically taking responsibility for what you are buying? :roll:Dogguy said:I would like to ask the breeders responding to this post again, are you guys having that many pups with genetic problems ?popping up? that you can't afford monetarily or ethically to take responsibility for what you are producing? The folks here are not talking about a fat dog but one that drags its legs after a couple retrieves.
This would all be so much easier if the dog had HD or didn't pass CERF because a refund would make it all OK?Dogguy said:I would like to ask the breeders responding to this post again, are you guys having that many pups with genetic problems ?popping up? that you can't afford monetarily or ethically to take responsibility for what you are producing? The folks here are not talking about a fat dog but one that drags its legs after a couple retrieves.
Having a dog with HD, ED or EIC or any other problem is upsetting to say the least. We take our lumps and try again. If I remember correctly the breeder tried working with you, some of us haven't been so lucky.
G
It is a wide swath of cotton you are cutting with this trhread and poll.
One is left with the impression that EIC is implied to be covered in the contract though in your own words it is not directly mentioned.
I would suggest you speak to the breeder and come to a compromise; you ask if the breeder will be satisfied with an independent diagnosis from a specialist in the field of EIC in your state. That will save the cost of shipping the dog. If the dog is confirmed to have EIC then that begs the question what t do with the dog. If your dog was to be a working/competition dog or just a pet that may change some what the refund or replacement leverage you have with the breeder.
In a contract I use the breeder will refund the purchase price of the pup if the dog is found to have any inheritable disease that would adversely impact the the performance of the dog. This clause is in addition to to the commonly known and stated diseases of Labrador Retrievers.
Further there is a short time line on refund once a diagnosis establishes the disease.The buyer of the pup should not have to waite unduly for the refund.
One is left with the impression that EIC is implied to be covered in the contract though in your own words it is not directly mentioned.
I would suggest you speak to the breeder and come to a compromise; you ask if the breeder will be satisfied with an independent diagnosis from a specialist in the field of EIC in your state. That will save the cost of shipping the dog. If the dog is confirmed to have EIC then that begs the question what t do with the dog. If your dog was to be a working/competition dog or just a pet that may change some what the refund or replacement leverage you have with the breeder.
In a contract I use the breeder will refund the purchase price of the pup if the dog is found to have any inheritable disease that would adversely impact the the performance of the dog. This clause is in addition to to the commonly known and stated diseases of Labrador Retrievers.
Further there is a short time line on refund once a diagnosis establishes the disease.The buyer of the pup should not have to waite unduly for the refund.
achiro said:Wow, I am really surprised by some of the responses and reactions here. I can't imagine anyone expecting any breeder to be responsible for every genetic issue that may pop up. Maybe its the "not my fault" society we live in, I don't know. Those of you that are breeder that are saying you handle any and all genetic issues, more power to you but I think its a bad precedent to some extent.
Russ[/quote
The "Not My Fault" mentality can be compared also to any breeder who produces pups that are not able to function in a normal way. A risk of producing a litter is that you might not have healthy pups AND you might not profit on the sale of every pup in the litter. Have you ever heard the statement that "you don't make money breeding dogs"? or "the money isn't yours until the warranty period is over"?
I am not making a judgement on either the buyer or seller in this instance. I wish that they could just settle the issue in private in a fair way.
I don't know how severely this dog is affected. If it was purchased to be anything other than a couch potatoe and is unable to perform average, normal activities, then it was misrepresented regardless of the affliction. (On the other hand, some of the warranted problems may not affect how the dog performs or what the buyer's intended use is but still a buyer might want a refund.)
Have you ever read an ad for pups that stated they were only suited for couch potatoe duties? With the pedigree stated, it's a sure bet that none of the pups were purchased to lay on the sofa...or that the litter was presented as pets only...
I have to agree with Russ on this one. I have a bitch that is tested for everything I can think of to test for. If she was to produce a pup with EIC or any other disease that we don't understand or have a test for, I would feel like I have done my due diligence and the buyer can share in the risk. A breeder should do as much as he can but there is a limit.achiro said:I do understand the reasons for guarantees. If I breed a litter, I will offer them for whatever genetic issues we can test for and try to limit. I just can't imagine approaching the breeder with a genetic issue like EIC or even CNM(in a litter from before this test was available) and expecting anything in return. This breeder is going above and beyond IMO and to complain that she is asking for anything is a little low. Do your research, buy your pup, and take your chances regards, Russ
HarryWilliams said:Next thing, you'll want him to be wearing a clean shirt and saying please and thank you!!! :wink: HPWhhlabradors said:h, would you consider punctuation and capitalization? Pretty please?
Well, it's not like I asked him to take his hat off in the house and his boots off at the door... :wink:
A breeder has no responsibility for inherited disease in their pups, which as a breeder they bred, unless it's covered in a written guarantee? You have got to be kidding. I understand it's not intentional but nonetheless, they have responsiiblity because they are the breeder & took money for a pup based upon its titled pedigree & its potential. The inherited disease took away that potential, therefore some consideration is due the pup buyer - if nothing more than the difference in price for a "couch potato (as has been said) vs. a healthy pup capable of being a working retriever. I guess some folks have no conscience.
First of all... :roll: times 1000000000000000000000000000000000000Granddaddy said:I guess some folks have no conscience.
Second of all, I research the pups I buy. I know everything possible genetically that may pop up before I write the check. MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.
You may well do your due diligence, & all should, but since many breeders and stud owners likely have not done the prior research or are not willing to tell you everything they know their dog has produced, I doubt you know quite as much as you may think. But that's the environment we live in - especially when it comes to inherited disease that many know are there but refuse to discuss.achiro said:...I research the pups I buy. I know everything possible genetically that may pop up before I write the check.
Misplaced logic, I think. First of all, we don't test for OFA clearances or CERF results, professionals in the vet medicine field make observations & predictions that result in an OFA & CERF status yet I'm guessing you would take a refund for a pup not passing either. Next, the idea that medical professionals & researchers require a "test" to prove or diagnose is both a misunderstanding of the process of medical diagnosis in many cases and is incorrect. There are very few diseases & conditions where a "test" exists to "prove" a disease or condition. Diagnosis is more generally done but eliminating other diseases, classifying a disease by it's known symptoms, by observing measurable symptoms & bodily parameters - and by observing the ancestry in the case of inherited disease. Research into EIC has done all of these things & many dogs have been diagnosed with EIC. To claim EIC doesn't exist or claim its observance in progeny can't be known by breeders & stud owners because it isn't listed on an AKC pedigree is to bury your head in the sand - and gives the unethical all the room they need to continue to produce progeny that either carry or are affected by this or other awful inherited conditions. Notwithstanding the logic of your conscience, I would hope that breeders & stud owners that price their pups or service on the titles and performance of their dogs would be willing to reduce that price when it is determined that the pup doesn't have that potential (& never did) because of inherited disease.achiro said:...MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.
I think I have the solution. If I ever become a breeder I will do like sears and best Buy does, For a price you can get an extended garuntee.
I'm only half joking.
I'm only half joking.
Granddaddy, my patients call me Dr. Anderson. I am well aware of the process of diagnosis. Thanks for the lesson though.Granddaddy said:Next, the idea that medical professionals & researchers require a "test" to prove or diagnose is both a misunderstanding of the process of medical diagnosis in many cases and is incorrect. There are very few diseases & conditions where a "test" exists to "prove" a disease or condition. Diagnosis is more generally done but eliminating other diseases, classifying a disease by it's known symptoms, by observing measurable symptoms & bodily parameters - and by observing the ancestry in the case of inherited disease.
Nobody has said that EIC does not exist. What we have said is that any thought that it is inherited is still theory. Probably correct but then how is it inherited. Again, theory. All indications are that it will eventually be PROVEN that it is but so far it isn't. Next, and to the point of my earlier posts, There is no way for a breeder to know for sure that EIC is a possibility any more than the buyer.(unless of course an earlier litter had affecteds) If someone chooses to guarantee against it, more power to them.Granddaddy said:Research into EIC has done all of these things & many dogs have been diagnosed with EIC. To claim EIC doesn't exist or claim its observance in progeny can't be known by breeders & stud owners because it isn't listed on an AKC pedigree is to bury your head in the sand - and gives the unethical all the room they need to continue to produce progeny that either carry or are affected by this or other awful inherited conditions.
Stud owners are financially liable now? Thats one I've never heard before. :roll:Granddaddy said:the logic of your conscience, I would hope that breeders & stud owners that price their pups or service on the titles and performance of their dogs would be willing to reduce that price when it is determined that the pup doesn't have that potential (& never did) because of inherited disease.
Its very easy. If you as the buyer want to have a guarantee against every genetic problem(and ones that may or may not be genetic) good luck finding a quality pup. I know there are a few, I'm sure that the ones who have posted here that they cover anything have fine pups. But to expect someone to refund for a health issue that may or may not be genetic, and has no way to know more about it than the buyer, is beyond IMO.
achiro said:Stud owners are financially liable now? Thats one I've never heard before. :roll:
Its very easy. If you as the buyer want to have a guarantee against every genetic problem(and ones that may or may not be genetic) good luck finding a quality pup. I know there are a few, I'm sure that the ones who have posted here that they cover anything have fine pups. But to expect someone to refund for a health issue that may or may not be genetic, and has no way to know more about it than the buyer, is beyond IMO.
Everyone owes JQP when something goes wrong. Everyone is responsible. Except him.
We are supposed to put in years of blood, sweat and tears. Wash out dogs ourselves, lose mountains of money. Invest thousands upon thousands of dollars. Test for everything known and somehow be absolutely all-knowing about stuff that isn't known. Wrack our brains, lose sleep, put our bitches' lives at risk. Sell absolutely perfect puppies, guaranteed, for a few measly hundred bucks (because God forbid, anyone make a profit) and still be the mattress padding for any potential stumble the buyer may make. And then put up with these same buyers getting on the internet and trashing our dogs' reputations and our own?
Hog wash. For some people, no matter what you do, it's just never good enough.
I am "owed" "replacement" puppies I won't collect. I've never taken, or asked for, money back. The breeders did the best they could, I did the best I could, and like lots of other things in life, there were unexpected curve balls.
I just put my Big Girl Panties on and decided to deal with it.
You're either independently wealthy or trying for sainthood. If I drop $3500 for a puppy, in addition to a refund if anything crops up, I even expect his crap to smell like roses!MY conscience wouldn't allow me to take money back from a breeder if something popped up outside the things we have the ability to test for.
Thanks for the warning... :wink:M Remington said:You're either independently wealthy or trying for sainthood. If I drop $3500 for a puppy, in addition to a refund if anything crops up, I even expect his crap to smell like roses!
(Note to self: Headache and ulcer alert: Do not sell to...)
Wooo Hoooo Eleanor!!! You go girl!!!! :wink: :wink:
With the attitude of puppy buyers now,, why would any breeder in their right mind guarantee anything?????
The good breeders do the best they can do. If the puppy buyer doesn't think that's good enough and want the moon and the stars......... Well then maybe they should own a goldfish. Do those come with a guarantee???? :?
Angie
With the attitude of puppy buyers now,, why would any breeder in their right mind guarantee anything?????
The good breeders do the best they can do. If the puppy buyer doesn't think that's good enough and want the moon and the stars......... Well then maybe they should own a goldfish. Do those come with a guarantee???? :?
Angie
If they do, then I am owed a LOT of goldfish! I can't keep those darn things alive for anything...Angie B said:then maybe they should own a goldfish. Do those come with a guarantee???? :?
Angie
G
You know, this brings up something I've always wondered about... Why IS the stud not responsible for any portion of damages resulting from inherited genetic diseases? ESPECIALLY those known to be inherited only as a result of the sire/dam combo -- no matter how hard the breeder tried to avoid them.
Why is it all the dam's fault? I've thought that there should be a percentage of the stud fee returned on puppies who have to enforce a guarantee???? Why wouldn't that work? So if a stud fee is $1000... Bitch had 10 puppies. One dog comes back with an enforceable health guarantee... Stud owes $100 towards that pup's refund. Or something like that...
Why not?? I mean I know this would REQUIRE the stud owner to AGREE with the puppy health guarantee OR have specific diseases/conditions for which they will refund a portion of the stud fee. Am I the only one that things this makes sense?
I'm not poo-poo'ing studs by ANY means. I just wonder why the bitch owner assumes TOTAL financial liability for inherited diseases/conditions when they paid money for the use of the stud.
-K
Why is it all the dam's fault? I've thought that there should be a percentage of the stud fee returned on puppies who have to enforce a guarantee???? Why wouldn't that work? So if a stud fee is $1000... Bitch had 10 puppies. One dog comes back with an enforceable health guarantee... Stud owes $100 towards that pup's refund. Or something like that...
Why not?? I mean I know this would REQUIRE the stud owner to AGREE with the puppy health guarantee OR have specific diseases/conditions for which they will refund a portion of the stud fee. Am I the only one that things this makes sense?
I'm not poo-poo'ing studs by ANY means. I just wonder why the bitch owner assumes TOTAL financial liability for inherited diseases/conditions when they paid money for the use of the stud.
-K
Well folks, welcome to the $20,000 puppy with a 100% guarantee.
Ok, I deleted the dandruff part but where is the line drawn as to who perceives what is a genetic defect? What I meant is I know people that believe any defect is hereditary and the breeder is responsible.
Ok, I deleted the dandruff part but where is the line drawn as to who perceives what is a genetic defect? What I meant is I know people that believe any defect is hereditary and the breeder is responsible.
Dandruff ... EIC
Sorry, don't see how that relates...there is no comparison here...
Sorry, don't see how that relates...there is no comparison here...
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