EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back>?

14257 Views 99 Replies 33 Participants Last post by Latisha, Mar 23, 2006

splashdownoutfitters

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2006

I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?

61 - 80 of 100 Posts

Bill Watson

· #61 · Mar 20, 2006 (Edited)

This is Cleo and, speaking as a breeder, I just have to add my 2 cents.
First - if 'people' were as careful in their breeding of each other as most of us 'dog' breeders are, it would most likely be a much better world and fewer people to cause traffic jams. Seems like todays generations want to be completely covered from the womb to the tomb and take no responsibility at all for their actions.

Seriously, stop and think about it. How much control does a breeder have on a pup once it leaves the kennel? We have no idea what environment it goes to. Ideally we hope that the buyer will follow our instructions but Alaska is a long way from Mississippi. I can't tell if the buyer thinks fat puppies are so cute and overfeeds it to attain this 'look' even if I have stressed the damage overfeeding can do to the developing hips. Look at those fools who think it is macho to ride their pup, unrestrained, in the back of the Pick Up and then allows this young dog to jump off the tail gate and possibally jamb those shoulders. Think of all the stupid things we allow and do to our dogs.

We feel that we have a very generous guarantee and honor hips and eyes. We also take into consideration other problems that might arise and deal with it as equitiably as we can. Know this about me though, I am as nice and as easy to work with as YOU allow me, BUT get ugly and unreasonable and the 'head bitch in the kennel' will come out from under the porch and bite you on the leg.

By the way - good news. All five of our girls, Dee Dee, Dolly, Goosie, Tootie and Lady are all CNM clean, Praise the Lord.
________
DariusAnnie live

See less See more

hhlabradors

· #62 · Mar 20, 2006

Bill Watson said:
This is Cleo We feel that we have a very generous guarantee and honor hips and eyes. We also take into consideration other problems that might arise and deal with it as equitiably as we can. Know this about me though, I am as nice and as easy to work with as YOU allow me, BUT get ugly and unreasonable and the 'head bitch in the kennel' will come out from under the porch and bite you on the leg.

Cleo, I am doing the wave for you here in Wisconsin. That's exactly the way it should be!

Congratulations on the wonderful CNM reports!

Regards,

Kevin Mays

· #63 · Mar 20, 2006

I have bought some really nice pups before. NONE came with any guarantee. I have paid as much as $3500. I have sold pups for $3000 and i have never given any guarantees on FT breedings and never had anyone ask for one.. I did have a ht bitch (mh,hrch) that i did give hips and eyes on her breedings but wont in the future. I am not a breeder and may not be able to replace your pup with an equal dog. I have one litter every 2-3 yrs or so.

You need to do your research when you buy a pup. Most of the people here in the ft game understand the risk with buying a pup. take your lumps and move on. The chance of having a washout is way greater than having diseases that keep them from running and competing. Are breeders suppose to give your money back cause your dog cant mark or run staright. Poor water entry. Lack of style. The consumer has to bear risk in the transaction. Buying pups is not a riskless transaction.

If you want to play put your big boys pants on and take your chances. If you buy the wrong breeding learn from your mistakes and move on.

See less See more

Granddaddy

· #64 · Mar 20, 2006

To read this tread ALL breeders are doing everything right & the best they can. ALL buyers wanting a refund for an inherited disease are classified as accepting no responsibility.

First, ALL breeders are not doing everything they can. Several high profile stud owners know they are producing pups with EIC from multiple bitches, yet they continue to take stud fees - that's NOT doing "everything they can". Worse, these same high profile stud owners don't tell their clients about these prior progeny results, even when asked while falling all over themselves to sing the praises of anything positive about their stud. It's "show me the money" & I'm out of here.

Same for some less than forthright breeders. So why guarantee anything? Because these unethical stud owners & breeders are giving the good ones a bad name & causing many pup buyers to suspect them all. Further, these $3500+ pups are represented as particularily suited for the tasks of a working retriever, so if they can't do anything but sit on the couch due to the breeding itself (not what happens after the pups is sold), there should be some equitable adjustment in the price to represent the couch potato, his keep during his first 6-8 wks, etc (& based upon the circumstances this may include both the breeder & stud owner).

And it's not a question of IF EIC is inherited, it's just a matter of how (just read the published research). This is no different than the environment that has previously surrounded CNM. Many knew of dogs that passed CNM but the few unethical stud owners & breeders of some of these carrier dogs kept right on - business as usual, "show me the money". The CNM test just shows them for what they were all along - but more importantly it does give the guy (the ethical breeder, stud owner, & buyer) doing due diligence, a means to "prove" what he suspected but couldn't get anyone to admit.

See less See more

Latisha

· #65 · Mar 20, 2006

kristie said:
I'm not poo-poo'ing studs by ANY means. I just wonder why the bitch owner assumes TOTAL financial liability for inherited diseases/conditions when they paid money for the use of the stud.

-K

When the bitch owner starts giving the stud a percentage of the sales of each pup, then that might make more sense. Besides, the studs may not be liable financially but it is their reputation on the line. The boys get blamed for every little thing as it is.

Oh, and back to the point of this thread. I think the breeder is going above and beyond what is required in their contract. How can one fault them? Since none of this is covered in the original contract, it is up to the buyer and the breeder to amicably work out an agreement *cough* privately *cough* that works for both of them.

Latisha

Bill Watson

· #66 · Mar 21, 2006 (Edited)

Eleanor, thank you for the kind words. Bill and I have always tried to treat our buyers, and people in general, like we would like to be treated. (Not often treated that way these days - but we still try), just the way we were raised.
________
HotDemmi

Ken Archer

· #67 · Mar 21, 2006

Kevin Mays said:
You need to do your research when you buy a pup. Most of the people here in the ft game understand the risk with buying a pup. take your lumps and move on. The chance of having a washout is way greater than having diseases that keep them from running and competing. Are breeders suppose to give your money back cause your dog cant mark or run staright. Poor water entry. Lack of style. The consumer has to bear risk in the transaction. Buying pups is not a riskless transaction.

If you want to play put your big boys pants on and take your chances. If you buy the wrong breeding learn from your mistakes and move on.

Although I currently give a health guarantee with all my pups, you certainly have me reconsidering that policy now, Kevin. I had never thought of the health risks in the same light as that of washing out a dog because he didn't have the talent to play the game.

JusticeDog

· #68 · Mar 21, 2006

kristie said:
Why IS the stud not responsible for any portion of damages resulting from inherited genetic diseases?

Actually, the dam is picking the stud....... not usually the other way around. Biggest thing in my book. dam owners are charged with the duty of doing the home work, just like buyers. However, if a sire does have some inherent difficulty, the sire owner needs to put the cards on the table, when asked. And as Latisha said, they certainly don't share in a % of the "profits."

gone2thedogs

· #69 · Mar 21, 2006

Wow,
What a wide variety of opinions here...... I guess that I was lucky that the breeder that I purchased my pup that developed EIC refunded my money without me even asking. Yes, I did take part in the Auburn study with her and she is just a house dog now. She will live a happy life, be well cared for and loved. She just won't be able to do what she was bred to do, which she loves to do and was dang good at till she had her first episode....
Looking at the post there are lots of breeders that I would not buy from, heck I may not buy another Lab, not worth the risk, you see in my house these dogs are members of our family, not just items to be bought and returned if they don't work out. Guess I should just suck it up and be happy. Sorry, it aint gonna happen! It makes me MAD that the stud is still being bred to many dogs after multiple pups have shown EIC symptoms from two different breedings. I don't think that it is just the stud, neither should be bred if pups show EIC symptoms and testing is done to eliminate other conditions.... Just my opinion. Silly me, I thought it should be about making the breed better, not just money..... But reality says otherwise.......

See less See more

Lisa Van Loo

· #70 · Mar 21, 2006

Ken Archer said:
Kevin Mays said:

You need to do your research when you buy a pup. Most of the people here in the ft game understand the risk with buying a pup. take your lumps and move on. The chance of having a washout is way greater than having diseases that keep them from running and competing. Are breeders suppose to give your money back cause your dog cant mark or run staright. Poor water entry. Lack of style. The consumer has to bear risk in the transaction. Buying pups is not a riskless transaction.

If you want to play put your big boys pants on and take your chances. If you buy the wrong breeding learn from your mistakes and move on.

Click to expand...

Although I currently give a health guarantee with all my pups, you certainly have me reconsidering that policy now, Kevin. I had never thought of the health risks in the same light as that of washing out a dog because he didn't have the talent to play the game.

You can't guarantee a dog's performance. Too many variables, many of which are in the buyer's ball court.

Health issues are a different situation. It's one thing to bring a dog along, find out he doesn't have talent, and sell him on as a started or finished gun dog.

It's entirely other to have a dog you can't even START to train because of some health issue. The dog never gets a chance to show what it has. Some can never live normal lives. In the case of genetic issues, they land squarely in the breeder's court.

I think when a condition is *known* and *demonstrated* to be of a heriditary nature, the breeder owes something back to the buyer. Could be a refund, a replacement, but at the very least, should come in the form of concern and caring for the dog and family, and especially in the case of someone just starting out, advice on where to go, what diagnostic tests, maybe information about the condition (whatever it is). Keeping the lines of communication open are a must, so that the breeder can help the buyer, and the buyer can keep the breeder apprised as the condition develops.

Lisa

See less See more

h4everything

· #71 · Mar 21, 2006

I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.

hhlabradors

· #72 · Mar 21, 2006

h4everything said:
I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.

Entropion is a completely different thing than EIC. It should have been identified prior to sending you the pup, if not by the breeder or the vet on the well puppy check, then when the pups' eyes were examined (you did do your homework and get a puppy from a breeder who gets the pups' eyes examined, right?)

Entropion is also repaired by a surgery that is not overly cost-prohibitive. If you wanted a potential breeding pup, you shouldn't have been sent that one. If you didn't plan to breed, the surgery should have been done before the pup was shipped and you should have gotten the pup on limited registration and a spay/neuter contract.

Lisa Van Loo

· #73 · Mar 21, 2006

hhlabradors said:
h4everything said:

I would think that it would be cheaper on her as well as you to refund some of your money on the dog. Even though whe is not good for breeding she might still make a really good gun dog. I was in a situation recently with a Chessie breeder that sent me an expensive dog with entropian eyes. (Its eyes were matted up when I picked up at the airport and vet confirmed 2 days later. The #()@$U guy offered to give me $100) Entropia wasn't specifically in the guarantee but I expected a healthy pup. If anybody wants the breeders name IM me. still very mad about getting screwed.

Click to expand...

Entropion is a completely different thing than EIC. It should have been identified prior to sending you the pup, if not by the breeder or the vet on the well puppy check, then when the pups' eyes were examined (you did do your homework and get a puppy from a breeder who gets the pups' eyes examined, right?)

Entropion is also repaired by a surgery that is not overly cost-prohibitive. If you wanted a potential breeding pup, you shouldn't have been sent that one. If you didn't plan to breed, the surgery should have been done before the pup was shipped and you should have gotten the pup on limited registration and a spay/neuter contract.

Good advice, Eleanor, except for one thing.

A dog with surgically corrected entropion will have a CERF number, and no "breeder's option" notation. So it is possible for someone to get a dog's eyes corrected (tacked, when they are young), keep mum, and CERF the dog into eternity.

Has been an issue in the Chessie breed for some time.

Lisa

h4everything

· #74 · Mar 21, 2006

The parents had all health certs and I was looking for more than a pet/gundog. I guess I was wanting a dog that could have possibly been a brood bitch to better the breed. He sure didn't sell me the pup at a discounted pup. It cost about $300 to get the eye fixed too. My blood still boils about it when I start thinking about it.

hhlabradors

· #75 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
A dog with surgically corrected entropion will have a CERF number, and no "breeder's option" notation. So it is possible for someone to get a dog's eyes corrected (tacked, when they are young), keep mum, and CERF the dog into eternity.

Has been an issue in the Chessie breed for some time.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Good point. I guess I've always figured there are ways to get around most everything if someone's devious enough, but I've not directed a lot of energy into worrying about that. I suppose I may be a bit naive.

I guess one of the things I'd hoped the entropion puppy buyer would take away from my post is that if the breeder had taken the pups in for an eye exam prior to sending them to their new homes, his/her situation would have been a lot less likely to happen. The breeder would have had to knowingly put an affected pup on the plane to an unsuspecting buyer. Perhaps he did or perhaps he didn't. With an eye exam, it would have been documented.

This goes back to the previous posts about buyers having the responsibility to do their homework and pick their breeders carefully. Not just by pedigree of the litter, not just by price of the pup, or location, or color, or whatever, but they need to read up on the things good breeders should do and and why and be certain that they're comfortable with the protocols of the breeders they choose.

You can choose not to worry because the dam's CERF isn't current, you can choose not to worry about elbow clearances, or puppy eye exams or whatever, but then you cannot choose to feel sorry for yourself and complain when your choices come back to bite you in the butt.

JMO of course :wink:

See less See more

hhlabradors

· #76 · Mar 21, 2006

What does the parents having all of their health certs have to do with the puppies getting eye exams before they went to their new homes? Were you told that the puppy had had the eyes examined and passed and then sent the entropion pup?

h (that's becoming a common name around here...) if you aren't informed enough to be asking these questions of breeders and giving their answers serious consideration, then, with all due respect, you aren't informed enough to be thinking about breeding and bettering the breed even if your bitch had turned out to be the most fabulous in the world.

Lisa Van Loo

· #77 · Mar 21, 2006

Eleanor;

Again, all great advice...if we were talking about Labradors.

AFAIK, I am about the only Chessie breeder on the planet who does CERF exams on entire litters before placement.

Likewise, we are just NOW gaining traction with elbow certifications.

So the idea that "you didn't do your due diligence, too bad for you" doesn't wash.

Lisa

FOM

· #78 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
So the idea that "you didn't do your due diligence, too bad for you" doesn't wash.

Sometimes it doesn't fly wih labs either. We think we ask the "right" questions only to find out you didn't. Everyone says do your research - well you think you do and it still blows up in your face....it is very frustrating, but you learn real quick who you can trust and who you can't. Yeah it is a crap shoot. Yeah there are no truly clean lines out there. But its tough to get the answers especially when you get the run around. It is definately buyer beware!

FOM

hhlabradors

· #79 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
Eleanor;

Again, all great advice...if we were talking about Labradors.

AFAIK, I am about the only Chessie breeder on the planet who does CERF exams on entire litters before placement.

Likewise, we are just NOW gaining traction with elbow certifications.

So the idea that "you didn't do your due diligence, too bad for you" doesn't wash.

Lisa

Well, that's pretty sad.

Still, I think it does wash. You do your research to find out what problems there are in the breed. You do your research to find out what can be done and what breeders are actually doing. At some point, you make your decision to 1) hang in there until you find the only breeder on the planet who does things the way you want, 2) you find a breed where you feel you'll be taking a more acceptable level of risk, or 3) you take your chances with your eyes open and you deal with the consequences.

With the internet there is good information readily available to those who put in the effort on the front end. I (obviously) know little about Chessies, but I bet I could get at least a good basic education about them if I wanted to.

I recently bought a field pup. I have no complaints about the transaction or about the breeder, but in the "field world" some of the breeders do things a little differently than I would insist on in my usual conformation circle. I know the areas where I relaxed my diligence, and will not be posting any polls or personal attacks if it turns out that I made a mistake in altering my expectations. My own fault, nobody forced me...

See less See more

alaskan peakes

· #80 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa - I'm with you........

After what I have been through with Liberty and her cataracts I have made some decisions as per my puppy guarantee. I just would want to make things right with the buyer. Even though we can't guarantee a puppy's temperment - we sure as heck can guarantee against the more common physical traits that cause physical impairment.

All puppies that come from my (future :wink: ) kennel, will have eyes checked along with their regular vet check-up. My breeding stock will have eyes cerfed yearly, and hips AND elbows ofa cleared as well.

Juli

61 - 80 of 100 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.