EIC from 2004NFC X Lean mac Should the Breeder Buy Back>?

14249 Views 99 Replies 33 Participants Last post by Latisha, Mar 23, 2006

splashdownoutfitters

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2006

I purchased a dog from a Lady in Peyton Co. about 1yr ago.. The dog being just a year old has what the Vet calls EIC....The dog in Question is sired 2004 NFC DRAKE by a Lean Mac and Rita reynolds Bitch....After asking " Mrs Breeder'' about this .She said she would replace with another lab in a Year or 2 by another FC sired stud to her bitch whom is running trails right now....Mrs bREEDER also wants the dog back to examine it...Why Cant I just for a spay and get 2 vets opinions instead of having to fly the dog back to Colorado and spending even more money...What would you guys do out there?
Why send the dog so she can make a diag.? When the 2 vets can tell the same thing.....There was nothing ever covered in the guarantee about EIC just like 99% of them out there......But you can bet money my next purchase will have that in Bold writing....
Dont get me wrong I am pleased she has offered to replace the pup but I am really gun shy about the Whole thing right now..
SO I am faced with spend another 300 to fly this dog back or Just call it a loss?

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hhlabradors

· #81 · Mar 21, 2006

alaskan peakes said:
All dogs that come from my (future :wink: ) kennel, will have eyes checked along with their regular vet check-up. My breeding stock will have eyes cerfed yearly, and hips AND elbows ofa cleared as well.

Juli

Awesome.

Lisa Van Loo

· #82 · Mar 21, 2006

Eleanor;

I hear what you are saying, and I agree...up to a point.

That point is where the informed use facts to dupe people, or shirk their responsibilities. In other words, saying "well, it's easy to fix by surgery, so I'm not going to worry about it" breed the dog/bitch and keep mum, mum, mum. When a pup crops up with it "Gee, I never had THAT happen before (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)!"

The unfortunate downside is, that the newcomer to the breed then has his/her pup's eyelids doctored, gets a CERF #, and then breeds the dog/bitch, and keeps mum. What the heck, everybody else is doing it, I can too!

Or worse (and I know of actual cases where this has happened), the affected pups in a litter get their eyes repaired before being sold. The buyer never even KNOWS the pup had a problem. They later breed the dog, and SURPRISE!

It's a sad situation, and it's not going to change until the majority of puppy buyers demand elbow clearances, thyroid clearances, CERF exams on the pups, etc. And that's never going to happen.

Lisa

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hhlabradors

· #83 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
Eleanor;

I hear what you are saying, and I agree...up to a point.

That point is where the informed use facts to dupe people, or shirk their responsibilities. In other words, saying "well, it's easy to fix by surgery, so I'm not going to worry about it" breed the dog/bitch and keep mum, mum, mum. When a pup crops up with it "Gee, I never had THAT happen before (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)!"

The unfortunate downside is, that the newcomer to the breed then has his/her pup's eyelids doctored, gets a CERF #, and then breeds the dog/bitch, and keeps mum. What the heck, everybody else is doing it, I can too!

Or worse (and I know of actual cases where this has happened), the affected pups in a litter get their eyes repaired before being sold. The buyer never even KNOWS the pup had a problem. They later breed the dog, and SURPRISE!

It's a sad situation, and it's not going to change until the majority of puppy buyers demand elbow clearances, thyroid clearances, CERF exams on the pups, etc. And that's never going to happen.

Lisa

Lisa, I appreciate you sharing this information. I guess it goes to show that all threads have the potential to do some good from an educational standpoint.

You've never come across as anything but informed and ethical, so you must have times when you're ready to tear your hair out. But good on you for doing the right thing, and hopefully, more and more people like Juli will get on board.

Meanwhile, if the buyers DON'T start to demand the right things be done by the pups they buy, then (where is my dead horse society mug?? :wink: ) they are contributing to the problem.

I look forward to the day when you guys post that you've made progress in this respect. It seems like a great breed and deserves to be well taken care of.

h4everything

· #84 · Mar 21, 2006

My name is Jason Goss. I thought my name was on my profile. I will talk to anybody that wants to talk about it. Just PM me and I will give my number to anyone who asks or I will call them on my dime to talk about it.

The parents had all certification. I knew that chessies could have problems but I thought it was mainly from backyard breeders. He seemed very professional. I talked to some of the people he sold puppies to.
The puppy had shots and was checked out by a vet before she was shipped. I thought a checkup was the whole body. The eye was pretty messed up. I don't know how anyone could have missed it. Everyone I showed her too thought she was cute but asked what was wrong with her eye.

I never asked for all of my money or another puppy. I offered to spay her at my expense and just wanted half of my money back (that $450 on surgeries that shouldn't had to happen). I thought that was very fair. His offer was to spend another $200 and send her back (I had already had the surgery done) at my cost and wait another year for the next availble pup that would have cost significantly more. The original cost was $750.

That is my horror story. Maybe not the same as Splash downs problems but close enough for me to feel his pain.

Jason Goss

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hhlabradors

· #85 · Mar 21, 2006

Jason, from what you're saying, I'd have to agree that you were being very reasonable. I'm sorry that you had such a lousy experience.

Eleanor

Lisa Van Loo

· #86 · Mar 21, 2006

hhlabradors said:
Lisa, I appreciate you sharing this information. I guess it goes to show that all threads have the potential to do some good from an educational standpoint.

You've never come across as anything but informed and ethical, so you must have times when you're ready to tear your hair out. But good on you for doing the right thing, and hopefully, more and more people like Juli will get on board.

Meanwhile, if the buyers DON'T start to demand the right things be done by the pups they buy, then (where is my dead horse society mug?? :wink: ) they are contributing to the problem.

I look forward to the day when you guys post that you've made progress in this respect. It seems like a great breed and deserves to be well taken care of.

We're getting there...but slowly.

The vast majority of Chessie buyers just want a gun dog. They could care less about even registering their dog, much less health clearances on the parents.

So the "market pressure" is not there, and I doubt it ever will be.

Next weekend, I will be competing with Gopher in obedience, rally and agility. I hope she does well, not only from a personal perspective, but also because she could be the poster child for why "He doesn't have hip dysplasia, he walks just fine" is an illusion. Unfortunately, one all too many Chessie buyers AND breeders subscribe to.

Lisa

alaskan peakes

· #87 · Mar 21, 2006

So - here's a hypothetical question -
let's say you have an absolutely exceptional dog (in every way) - great temperment, just a really outstanding dog, hips and elbows clear, eyes pass cerf except that he/she had a mild case of entropion. Have the eyes fixed - train it like heck and it becomes the next FC AFC (or better yet NFC

) Would you then breed that dog - knowing that in all other aspects, except the entropion eyes, the dog is truly 'great'? It would be hard not to - esp if the right mate was found - one that had the correct physical skull structure as well as natural abilities. Yes, the breeder makes the buyers aware of the 'problem'.

Of course the probability of this ever happining is about 10,000,000 to 1. But it's something to think about . At what point do we just make the 'leap'?
IF I was in this position ( now 100,000,000 to 1 odds

:lol: ) You bet I would breed.

however, I would not breed an average or even well above average dog that had entropion(heck I won't breed an eaverage dog anyway), nor would I buy a pup from stock that threw entropion - unless the affected parent fit the above description.

Juli

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Lisa Van Loo

· #88 · Mar 21, 2006

alaskan peakes said:
So - here's a hypothetical question -
let's say you have an absolutely exceptional dog (in every way) - great temperment, just a really outstanding dog, hips and elbows clear, eyes pass cerf except that he/she had a mild case of entropion. Have the eyes fixed - train it like heck and it becomes the next FC AFC (or better yet NFC ) Would you then breed that dog - knowing that in all other aspects, except the entropion eyes, the dog is truly 'great'? It would be hard not to - esp if the right mate was found - one that had the correct physical skull structure as well as natural abilities. Yes, the breeder makes the buyers aware of the 'problem'.

Of course the probability of this ever happining is about 10,000,000 to 1. But it's something to think about . At what point do we just make the 'leap'?
IF I was in this position ( now 100,000,000 to 1 odds :lol: ) You bet I would breed.

however, I would not breed an average or even well above average dog that had entropion(heck I won't breed an eaverage dog anyway), nor would I buy a pup from stock that threw entropion - unless the affected parent fit the above description.

Juli

This happens more often in the breed than we would like. That is the fallout from having such a small gene pool.

Each breeder has to draw the line where he/she feels most comfortable. With a treatable condition (like entropion) it's not hard to make the leap. Where I have a problem is when nobody SAYS anything, thus removing the buyer's informed consent. Not kosher.

When I went to buy a Lab pup a few years back, the breeder told me everything they could think of, positive and negative, about the sire and dam. Not just health issues, but personality, training aspects, how the dogs ran, how they handled competition. Everything. THAT'S full disclosure. THAT'S informed consent.

For some reason, in the Chessie breed, people still adopt the "Not in OUR family!" approach to issues. This just slows down the process of breeding good dogs.

Lisa

alaskan peakes

· #89 · Mar 21, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
For some reason, in the Chessie breed, people still adopt the "Not in OUR family!" approach to issues. This just slows down the process of breeding good dogs.

Lisa

I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't tell propspective buyers as much as humanly possible about the sire and dam of a litter - both their strengths and weaknesses I would also try to tell as much about the pup's grandparents and great-grandparents as well.

If I was buying a pup I would want to know.

Juli

Whatever happened to the golen rule?[/b]

M Remington

· #90 · Mar 21, 2006

The sad thing about Jason's experience is that the person who sold him the dog is a Regional Director for the American Chesapeake Club!

I'd bring this up with the ACC. We certainly don't need this type of thing happening in the organization.

Rick Hall

· #91 · Mar 22, 2006

I'd quit following this thread some time back but am glad Mark recalled attention to it on a Chessie board.

Fwiw, I bought a pup from Jason's breeder a year ago and have been pleased with my dealings with him, knock wood. I read his rather spare warranty as meaningless in my case, since I'm not apt to return a pup for any reason, much less one I've had for two years, and factored "no warranty" into my purchase decision. (Had warranty been of real concern to me, we'd have rewritten one or I'd have bought elsewhere.) And in any event, he had what I wanted, I bought it, and I'm glad I did.

But I'm not anxious to unwittingly pass along an inherent problem, and while I don't know that my pup will ever be bred, I don't know that it won't at this point, either. Jason, would you please PM me with the breeding your pup was out of. Much thanks in advance.

M Remington

· #92 · Mar 22, 2006

Rick, I completely agree. This guy produces very nice puppies. Based upon the pedigrees, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

If Jason did receive a puppy in that condition, he was ripped off.

achiro

· #93 · Mar 22, 2006

I may not be understanding the entire situation here. I would like to think that if I picked a pup up from the airport with any visible issues that I would be calling the breeder and returning the pup as soon as I could find a return flight???

h4everything

· #94 · Mar 22, 2006

It was last January when it happened. I am 23 years old just out of college and this was my 2nd chessie (My first pup had got hit by a car). He was breeding a bitch that was out of Stacked Deck to a Pond Hollow Stud that was a similar breeding to my first dog. He seemed really good on the phone and the people that I checked with on him. The dogs had all of the regular tests. I wish I knew about this forum a year ago.

I did call him when I picked up the dog and asked about the eyes. I told the breeder that its eyes were very matted up and asked wht he thought was wrong. He said it was probably just from the air travel. I had heard of entropian eyes before but had never seen it before. I didn't know till later what the problem was. By the time I saw what the problem was there was no way I was going to send my dog back. I never asked for a full refund. Just to refund half of my money and I would spay and limited register the dog.

The sad thing is that the puppy did perform very well. Everyone that saw her work was impressed. I am sure that the breeder is great to deal with when everything is fine with your pup. It is when the going gets tough that you really find out what people are made of. Me posting this on the website will let me find out what I am made of. I had to remove the breeders name from my post.

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Lisa Van Loo

· #95 · Mar 22, 2006

Jason;

It's unfortunate that your pup had a problem.

Entropion isn't something that most breeders can diagnose. Heck, most VETS can't diagnose it (obviously, since the vet who did the health checks before shipping missed it).

I'm not saying you're right, the breeder's wrong, or you're wrong, the breeder's right. I'm saying, it happened, you did your best to make it right, and now just move on. You can't let this eat at you.

You're not going to get justice on an internet board. "Industry standard" among Chessie breeders is thay do hips and CERF exams on the pups. Many do not offer a warranty of any kind. Those that do, ofteen will only guarantee hips and eyes up to 26 months.

If having a more thorough warranty is important to you, you may want to switch breeds. This one is PLAGUED with orthopedic problems, many of which require surgery. Hip remodels or replacements, TPLO, elbow surgeries. They are all expensive. Compared to these, entropion is pretty tame, which MAY be why SOME breeders don't get worked up over it. I may not agree with these attitudes, and have worked pretty hard over the decades to raise awareness of health isues in the breed. But they are part of the reality of this breed.

As Eleanor said, if this is outside your comfort zone, either find the breeder who has the kind of warranty you are after (and actually honors it, another issue!), and tests for everything you can think of, or...switch breeds.

Lisa

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ErinsEdge

· #96 · Mar 22, 2006

Entropion isn't something that most breeders can diagnose. Heck, most VETS can't diagnose it (obviously, since the vet who did the health checks before shipping missed it).

I will back Lisa up on that. I bought a dog and at about 3 months her eyes looked "different". I asked the vet I was going to and she thought it was that she had lots of loose skin and was going to grow into a bigger head. She did not see entropion. At 5 months I was going to have some training put into her and she was squinting in the light and her lid finally started rolling in. I called the stud dog owner and he said don't spay her but have the lids tacked. He said he had thrown one other like that. I took her to a more experienced vet and he said she definately needed surgery. He also said he had fixed eyes on other dogs and he knew they had gone on to championships (breed). At the same time I had her spayed and sold her as a companion. The breeder paid for the eye part of the surgery which was only $122. The breeder was a friend so that was easier to solve. Although this is a late case of entropion, it shows how difficult it is to diagnose. It is also thought to be a polygenic inherited trait and most breedings may never show it so there is no reason to cull the parents, just don't repeat the breeding. Obviously the pup in question had a problem of mattering on arrival which was more obvious there was a problem to look into.

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Lisa Van Loo

· #97 · Mar 22, 2006

Just finished talking with the breeder of the sire of the entropion pup. She filled me in on who the dog is. I know this dog, and I know of no entropion anywhere in the pedigree, neither does he have it, nor his parents, nor any of his littermates. I don't know anything about the dam's side of the pedigree, but it's probabaly a similar story.

All this points out how complex the genetics is behind entropion. There's no such thing as an "entropion gene", nor is it a simple recessive. Entropion is caused by several characteristics happening at once, including skin thickness/quantity, head shape, eyerim shape, eye socket conformation...things controlled by literally dozens of genes. Get enough of these genes concentrated in an individual, a threshold is crossed, and entropion is the result

To bring this back to the original topic, how can we be sure EIC isn't inherited the same way? A collection of genes, any one of which, alone, codes for a normal, or even a desired trait, but when gathered together in an individual, crosses some threshold that causes EIC to manifest?

Short answer is: we can't.

Lisa

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JusticeDog

· #98 · Mar 22, 2006

Lisa Van Loo said:
To bring this back to the original topic, how can we be sure EIC isn't inherited the same way? A collection of genes, any one of which, alone, codes for a normal, or even a desired trait, but when gathered together in an individual, crosses some threshold that causes EIC to manifest?

Short answer is: we can't.

Good point, Lisa. As usual.

Larkin

· #99 · Mar 23, 2006

Jason's Dog

Jason approached me at a show in Oklahoma City last July about his dog. I didn't see the dog so I can't comment on her appearance or condition, but he did describe the circumstances then as he has here. I'm sorry that the breeder still hasn't done the right thing.

Whether or not entropion is inherited is something of a moot point, in my opinion--- he sold a dog with a serious health issue for a considerable chunk of change, and when approached by the buyer about the problem, offered $200, an insult. That the breeder suggested that a healthy puppy's eyes would become matted shut during a relatively short trip on an airplane is absurd, worthy of P.T. Barnum if only it were funny. Shortly after meeting Jason I relayed his tale of woe to some FT Chessie people, and they had a number of uncomplimentary things to add about the breeder in question.

If you're buying from a breeder that you don't personally know, this kind of situation lends good reason to go and pick the puppy up. See the breeders' facilities and other dogs, and if you don't like what you see you can still walk away. I agree that you can't warranty against every possible health issue when selling a puppy, but if your Mama raised you right then you know how to do the Right Thing in these instances.

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Latisha

· #100 · Mar 23, 2006

I don't have an interest with either party involved here, but one thing that sticks out to me is that this pup was supposedly picked up from the airport in bad condition and vet confirmed entropion 2 days later.

Do not most contracts have a 72 hour clause that allows for the buyer to have the pup health checked and if it doesn't meet the health check the pup can be returned at shipper's expense and a refund issued?

I thought this was standard. If the contract did have this clause and the buyer elects not to return the pup I can't see holding the breeder responsible at a later date for the assocated veterinary costs.

.02,
Latisha

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