EIC Poll
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EIC is one of those things, like epilepsy, that is not easily diagnosed, or even defined. A lot of things can cause a dog to collapse. Some of those things are hereditary, some aren't. If you've ruled out all the things that can cause a dog to collapse, then what you have left is EIC. At this point, whenther it is hereditary or not is still up in the air, although it does seem (or perhaps predisposing conditions) to run in families. It's really too early to make assumptions about carriers, etc., since mode of inheritance (or even IF it is inherited) has not been determined.
Just for your edification, no matter what the condition, it's ALWAYS the most well-known animal on a pedigree that gets blamed. Human nature at work again, I fear!
This is an old post from Lisa Van Loo.
Just for your edification, no matter what the condition, it's ALWAYS the most well-known animal on a pedigree that gets blamed. Human nature at work again, I fear!
This is an old post from Lisa Van Loo.
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That's about all I know about it too. Sure scares the heck out of you when it comes on. I have seen it in one dog that I owned and in a clients dog. It seemed to occur after a fast, high level of activity. Dog was oblivious to the over exertion. Once it happened we monitored the dogs acitivity and quit early. Especially playing with the kids and pheasant hunting.Mr Booty said:
Angie
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I have only seen it in other dogs, but until we determine the cause, I don't think it is proper to "out" a sire or compile a list. The cause may turn out to be metabolic (adrenal) and how individual dogs handle stress issues with some running in lines, also being dependent on training methods and pressure. However, we need to be aware of lines that produce it and not keep crossing them to get what we think are dogs that will win. The reason people get angry is they may have a dog from lines that are rumored to produce it but their dog doesn't. The Internet is a powerful tool for passing facts but also rumors.
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With Ten Labs in as many years.
I have had no EIC but one dog with occasional seizures that I control with Pheno Barb.
One pup from a litter that this dog sired has siezures as well.
Not enough information to reach a conclusion, but enough to start you thinking.
john
I have had no EIC but one dog with occasional seizures that I control with Pheno Barb.
One pup from a litter that this dog sired has siezures as well.
Not enough information to reach a conclusion, but enough to start you thinking.
john
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5 labs in 3 years... no EIC.
"The cause may turn out to be metabolic (adrenal) and how individual dogs handle stress issues with some running in lines, also being dependent on training methods and pressure. However, we need to be aware of lines that produce it and not keep crossing them to get what we think are dogs that will win. "
This is my personal opinion about the cause.. the need to breed the fastest race horse, so to speak.... when I've seen it, the dog's characteris extremely excitable, fast, etc.
"The cause may turn out to be metabolic (adrenal) and how individual dogs handle stress issues with some running in lines, also being dependent on training methods and pressure. However, we need to be aware of lines that produce it and not keep crossing them to get what we think are dogs that will win. "
This is my personal opinion about the cause.. the need to breed the fastest race horse, so to speak.... when I've seen it, the dog's characteris extremely excitable, fast, etc.
K
Kristie Wilder
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As far as well-bred field dogs, I've maybe had 30 or 40 out here total.
Only one with EIC. My own dog, now 8 years old. Textbook EIC. Nothing really mattered except his excitement level. Dropped a total of maybe 5 times between the ages of about 2 and 4 or 5. One time on purpose to do testing, biopsy, etc.
Would start to wobble, but be completely coherent. One of the classic signs, in my non-vet opinion, is that it's clear that their brain doesn't realize their body isn't working. An overheated dog tends to just quit, period. An EIC dog attempts to keep working. Once they drop, they're back up to full capacity, completely unaffected, normally within 10-20 minutes. Even though it's not heat-related, we would always ice our dog down because we worried we would misdiagnose an actual overheating episode.
I only have experience with my one dog, but it is so different than the few times I've seen dogs overheat.
The vet we were working with at the time felt that it was related to adrenaline, something on the cellular level.
I can say that our EIC dog is definitely high strung. When he was young, we couldn't let him sleep in bed because he would just lay there and pant (and we keep our house really cold). He wasn't high strung in a misbehaved way, he was just exciteable. Even today, when we go to the kennel, he's bouncing around, making noise and sometimes barking to be let out, even though he knows better. He's a master hunter and we never had any episodes at events, but Lisa Styles (who's on here occasionally) has a dog that seems to be more affected than Woodie. I know her dog, Loukas, even went down in water at least one time. That's really scary. Woodie never did that, thank God. His seemed to be only in the most exciting cases...
It's a very scary thing. It's very hard to watch. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
-Kristie
Only one with EIC. My own dog, now 8 years old. Textbook EIC. Nothing really mattered except his excitement level. Dropped a total of maybe 5 times between the ages of about 2 and 4 or 5. One time on purpose to do testing, biopsy, etc.
Would start to wobble, but be completely coherent. One of the classic signs, in my non-vet opinion, is that it's clear that their brain doesn't realize their body isn't working. An overheated dog tends to just quit, period. An EIC dog attempts to keep working. Once they drop, they're back up to full capacity, completely unaffected, normally within 10-20 minutes. Even though it's not heat-related, we would always ice our dog down because we worried we would misdiagnose an actual overheating episode.
I only have experience with my one dog, but it is so different than the few times I've seen dogs overheat.
The vet we were working with at the time felt that it was related to adrenaline, something on the cellular level.
I can say that our EIC dog is definitely high strung. When he was young, we couldn't let him sleep in bed because he would just lay there and pant (and we keep our house really cold). He wasn't high strung in a misbehaved way, he was just exciteable. Even today, when we go to the kennel, he's bouncing around, making noise and sometimes barking to be let out, even though he knows better. He's a master hunter and we never had any episodes at events, but Lisa Styles (who's on here occasionally) has a dog that seems to be more affected than Woodie. I know her dog, Loukas, even went down in water at least one time. That's really scary. Woodie never did that, thank God. His seemed to be only in the most exciting cases...
It's a very scary thing. It's very hard to watch. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
-Kristie
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EIC
I have had one dog with EIC out of a total of 8 labs. My Bullet didn't have his first episode until he was 2yrs 6months. Late to show up. He had been through basics with one pro and then onto preparing for Derby with another. He actually won a Derby and had other palces and jams before first episode. Neither of the pros had ever seen him have an attack. I was present the first time, trully scary! We continued to train and run him but with great care. He was a very high dog. Never walked just leaped, heavy panter,very fast, calm on the line. I used every supplement suggested by Sue Taylor. He only had a total of 5 episodes. His last year of running trials he had only one episode. He had finished and jamed Opens. However I lost Bullet last Dec 23rd on his 4th birthday. He had complications due to a foxtail in the lung. No sign he was ill. On a happier note I have replaced Bullet with a puppy from Kristie"s Auggie - Allie Oops litter.
I have had one dog with EIC out of a total of 8 labs. My Bullet didn't have his first episode until he was 2yrs 6months. Late to show up. He had been through basics with one pro and then onto preparing for Derby with another. He actually won a Derby and had other palces and jams before first episode. Neither of the pros had ever seen him have an attack. I was present the first time, trully scary! We continued to train and run him but with great care. He was a very high dog. Never walked just leaped, heavy panter,very fast, calm on the line. I used every supplement suggested by Sue Taylor. He only had a total of 5 episodes. His last year of running trials he had only one episode. He had finished and jamed Opens. However I lost Bullet last Dec 23rd on his 4th birthday. He had complications due to a foxtail in the lung. No sign he was ill. On a happier note I have replaced Bullet with a puppy from Kristie"s Auggie - Allie Oops litter.
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I've had a number of dogs over a number of years and have never had one with EIC.
Once upon a time I trained with an FC-AFC of a training partner's that occasionally had something occur that is very similar to what people describe when they recant an "EIC" episode. This was twenty years ago, and his rare episodes were treated with valium. He was diagnosed with a form of seizure. The few dogs I've seen over the years with seizure problems were treated with either phenobarb, primidone or valium as either a per-episode basis or as a management/prevention dose.
Once upon a time I trained with an FC-AFC of a training partner's that occasionally had something occur that is very similar to what people describe when they recant an "EIC" episode. This was twenty years ago, and his rare episodes were treated with valium. He was diagnosed with a form of seizure. The few dogs I've seen over the years with seizure problems were treated with either phenobarb, primidone or valium as either a per-episode basis or as a management/prevention dose.
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I've never seen EIC. But have seen a case of what looked like reverse sneezing. I don't believe this was a seizure. Does anyone know about reverse sneezing and causes? Hereditary? Treatment? It seems like this dog was very excited to find a downed pheasant in heavy weedy CRP type cover. The owner said it has happened approx 6 times and he usually strokes and talks dog down. Then its fine and off hunting again.
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I refer everyone to Dr. Sue Taylor?s article on EIC. http://thelabradorclub.com/library/eicstudy.html
I have revisited the Exercise Induced problem again because I perceive it is misunderstood and put in the closet as a deep dark secret. The replies to my post have definitely reaffirmed my feelings. First let us get it straight that EIC is genetic. It is not found in Jack Russell Terriers, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, etc. It is only found in Labs.
The responses to my post show how little the syndrome is understood by the retriever community. As Kristi reports, if you have observed an EIC episode you would know it is very distinctive. The dog is very alert, but the muscles stop working. In my dog?s first episode, he tried to drag himself to the mark with his front legs after the back legs gave out. The recovery is very fast.
While these dogs tend to be hyperactive, Dr. Taylor has not been able to find a correlation with high adrenalin levels and EIC. I have heard Dr Gillette at Auburn has pursued this avenue but have not seen any publication on his research. Dr Taylor?s current theory is that EIC is a metabolic problem at the brain and cell level.
I, personally, do not think stress is a factor. The syndrome is reproduced by continuously throwing bumpers at short distances. My dog will collapse on a walk in the country. I walk about one mile, he runs about three. I do not think he is under stress on his outing. I have a friend that shipped his EIC dog up to Dr. Taylor for research purposes. Before he found a pet home for his dog, he would collapse after ? hour to an hour of pheasant hunting.
Personally, I suffer from the number one occurring genetic disease in the United States, hemochromosis. Approximately 1 in 220 Americans suffer from it. It is usually fatal if untreated. Fortunately it is easy to treat once identified. The researcher of this project was able to publish the genetic history and ancestry of the disease based on phenotypes without threat of lawsuit. A couple of years ago the DNA markers were discovered and he was 100% correct.
Dr. Taylor currently uses pedigrees to help diagnosis EIC. I was fortunate enough to get the names of a couple EIC carriers before the good doctor was threatened with a lawsuit for naming names. She did not have financial resources to defend. So far, every pedigree I have reviewed of EIC dogs has had one or both of these dogs on each side. I understand there are dogs afflicted with EIC that do not have these dogs in their pedigree. Do not ask me for them. I have received them secondhand.
I do not know who threatened Dr Taylor with a lawsuit, but I hope if that person or persons subscribe to this list, they would be ethical enough to respond with a justification.
Russ
I have revisited the Exercise Induced problem again because I perceive it is misunderstood and put in the closet as a deep dark secret. The replies to my post have definitely reaffirmed my feelings. First let us get it straight that EIC is genetic. It is not found in Jack Russell Terriers, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, etc. It is only found in Labs.
The responses to my post show how little the syndrome is understood by the retriever community. As Kristi reports, if you have observed an EIC episode you would know it is very distinctive. The dog is very alert, but the muscles stop working. In my dog?s first episode, he tried to drag himself to the mark with his front legs after the back legs gave out. The recovery is very fast.
While these dogs tend to be hyperactive, Dr. Taylor has not been able to find a correlation with high adrenalin levels and EIC. I have heard Dr Gillette at Auburn has pursued this avenue but have not seen any publication on his research. Dr Taylor?s current theory is that EIC is a metabolic problem at the brain and cell level.
I, personally, do not think stress is a factor. The syndrome is reproduced by continuously throwing bumpers at short distances. My dog will collapse on a walk in the country. I walk about one mile, he runs about three. I do not think he is under stress on his outing. I have a friend that shipped his EIC dog up to Dr. Taylor for research purposes. Before he found a pet home for his dog, he would collapse after ? hour to an hour of pheasant hunting.
Personally, I suffer from the number one occurring genetic disease in the United States, hemochromosis. Approximately 1 in 220 Americans suffer from it. It is usually fatal if untreated. Fortunately it is easy to treat once identified. The researcher of this project was able to publish the genetic history and ancestry of the disease based on phenotypes without threat of lawsuit. A couple of years ago the DNA markers were discovered and he was 100% correct.
Dr. Taylor currently uses pedigrees to help diagnosis EIC. I was fortunate enough to get the names of a couple EIC carriers before the good doctor was threatened with a lawsuit for naming names. She did not have financial resources to defend. So far, every pedigree I have reviewed of EIC dogs has had one or both of these dogs on each side. I understand there are dogs afflicted with EIC that do not have these dogs in their pedigree. Do not ask me for them. I have received them secondhand.
I do not know who threatened Dr Taylor with a lawsuit, but I hope if that person or persons subscribe to this list, they would be ethical enough to respond with a justification.
Russ
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I've owned and trained about 50 labs in the last 10 years. I have never had a dog with EIC.
I have had training partners with dogs with the problem. I have seen probably between 7-10 labs that had the "classic" symptoms of EIC.
Its pretty obvious that the disease is genetic. How and what form it is passed down is still up for study. However, to say it is NOT genetic is to bury ones head in the sand.
I think for the most part, 90% of the "serious" FTers who have had a dog with this problem have washed them with the same attitude they use for washing any dog. Dog just didn't make it.
This is not a "new" disease. I think it is more common due to the availability of shipping semen all over the country.
To sweep any such genetic defect under the rug does an injustice to the "unknowing" buyer. While no one wants to "out" a dog, nor spread unjustified rumors, smart breeding needs to take place and without full disclosure this cannot happen.
WRL
I have had training partners with dogs with the problem. I have seen probably between 7-10 labs that had the "classic" symptoms of EIC.
Its pretty obvious that the disease is genetic. How and what form it is passed down is still up for study. However, to say it is NOT genetic is to bury ones head in the sand.
I think for the most part, 90% of the "serious" FTers who have had a dog with this problem have washed them with the same attitude they use for washing any dog. Dog just didn't make it.
This is not a "new" disease. I think it is more common due to the availability of shipping semen all over the country.
To sweep any such genetic defect under the rug does an injustice to the "unknowing" buyer. While no one wants to "out" a dog, nor spread unjustified rumors, smart breeding needs to take place and without full disclosure this cannot happen.
WRL
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Lee,
Thanks for the support for a problem should be the focus of the retriever community. I have talked to many of the top amateur and pro trainers on the West coast. Everyone of them has dealt with EIC multiple times and just washes out the dog and moves on.
You were probably around when the names of the carriers were originally named on the internet. I am sure you have more names of carriers than I do as you are such a student of breeding.
Russ
Thanks for the support for a problem should be the focus of the retriever community. I have talked to many of the top amateur and pro trainers on the West coast. Everyone of them has dealt with EIC multiple times and just washes out the dog and moves on.
You were probably around when the names of the carriers were originally named on the internet. I am sure you have more names of carriers than I do as you are such a student of breeding.
Russ
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I have never owned, trained with, or even seen a Lab with EIC.
I have seen a very nice dog with similar symptoms, and he was sired by Maxx. But it was later diagnosed as hypoglycemia.
I have seen a very nice dog with similar symptoms, and he was sired by Maxx. But it was later diagnosed as hypoglycemia.
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The dogs I have seen then may not have EIC but have something other type of going down because are not "very alert" when they collapse, it was stress mediated (coming off line, coming back after repeating a big triple in training with handles) but in sweatshirt weather, but also during pheasant hunting with all that scent and excitement. Maybe they just go down. That's the problem with naming names until we know for sure that they do indeed have EIC by some type of testing and not some form of heat exhaustion.Russ said:
They would not necessarily be looking for "high adrenalin levels" but test results indicative of adrenal exhaustion.
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From what you just described Nancy, it sounds as if those dogs have had episodes of heat stroke.
The main difference on a quick look, is the EIC dog IS mentally very aware. A dog with heat stroke is affected up to the point it might be totally out of it.
I have lost a dog to heat stroke. She over heated on a sunny, lightly breezy 68 deg day (I was wearing shorts and a sweatshirt). She collapsed, I got her cooled down but she was very lethargic for the rest of the day. Thirteen hours after collapsing, she died.
WRL
The main difference on a quick look, is the EIC dog IS mentally very aware. A dog with heat stroke is affected up to the point it might be totally out of it.
I have lost a dog to heat stroke. She over heated on a sunny, lightly breezy 68 deg day (I was wearing shorts and a sweatshirt). She collapsed, I got her cooled down but she was very lethargic for the rest of the day. Thirteen hours after collapsing, she died.
WRL
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Actually, they are seeing a similar response in hgh strung agility contenders such as border collies, so I will respectfully disagree with you on this point.Russ said:
I do admire your obvious concern for our breed, and it's only the continued and thorough questioning that progress can be made.
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I agree 100 percent with this statement. Any and all genetic defect's should be disclosed. I can assure you that any pup/dog that I look at buying I will be asking a ton of genetic questions, not just of the seller but from some very knowledgeable other people. As for maybe's and could be's about genetic defects, I will take those as well to make my decisions.WRL said:
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