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As a hunt test judge that is giving up at least 3 weekends this summer to judge, and has a Master level dog ready to roll, it is frustrating to say the least to not be able to get into tests.
If people that gave their time to judge field trials were denied entry in future trials the pool of judges would be gone in one year.

There is definitely a technology to scam the system.
Always will be.
One way to counter that would be unlimited entry. Of course that would mandate judging to a higher standard in order to complete the test in a weekend. I'm guessing that would not be popular.


The entry for a HT not far from me closed with 29 dogs entered in the master. They are not a master national club and do not want to be. The members just want local amateurs to be able to run the test.
 

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If people that gave their time to judge field trials were denied entry in future trials the pool of judges would be gone in one year.


Always will be.
One way to counter that would be unlimited entry. Of course that would mandate judging to a higher standard in order to complete the test in a weekend. I'm guessing that would not be popular.


The entry for a HT not far from me closed with 29 dogs entered in the master. They are not a master national club and do not want to be. The members just want local amateurs to be able to run the test.
Or let as many people enter that wanted to and then have a drawing for the final number of entrants after the event closes for entry.
 

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I ran hunt tests years ago before entry limits were introduced. If more than 60 entered, the club had to secure a 2nd set of Master judges after closing and the secretary would move half of those entered to the newly added flight. Some club Secretaries took care of Club members and friends by ensuring they stayed in the original flight while non-club members were moved to the newly added flight under judges they didn't sign up for and may have never wanted to run under.

The problem was that at that time, the Master National qualification allowed only 2 failures in a given year and many participants were not excited to run under the new set of judges, so they scratched after the close, to avoid a potential failure. After scratches, some tests ended up with fewer than 60 Master entries, but still had to go with two Master flights. The limits were introduced to remedy these issues, but have caused entirely new and different problems.

I got tired of playing the entry game and moved on to Field Trials years ago. While I still run trials, I thought it would be fun to put Master titles on a couple dogs I have now, but if I can't get entered, that could be a problem.

Like Don, I completed the entry process in Wednesday night in less than 30 seconds and would have been 22nd on the wait-list. Yet a pro was able to enter 15 dogs in the first 30 seconds... This is just ridiculous.

The Master National and Master Amateur qualification requirements are making it difficult, at best, to title new Master Hunters and something needs to change.
 

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Or let as many people enter that wanted to and then have a drawing for the final number of entrants after the event closes for entry.
Pros would then scratch all their dogs if they didn't get enough entries to make it a profitable weekend.
 

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As many know, over the last few years, it's generally been difficult to enter a dog in Master. Usually, if you weren't on the computer at 7 PM Central, you'd end up on the waitlist. Things got a little tougher when the "Worker Code" system began, giving those who could volunteer to work the event a code number so they could enter a day early. I've never had a problem with that although I'm usually not able to take advantage of it because I usually have dogs in every stake. I also don't have people working for me who I can "volunteer" to work in order for me to get worker codes. At some point in the last few years, EE started a "Captcha" system in an effort, as I understand, to defeat people from using a robot to enter virtually instantaneously as soon as entries open to everyone. In the past, I generally haven't had a problem entering one or two dogs in Master. Occasionally, I'd end up with a low position on the wait list, but I'd always get in. Recently, the 25/35% amateur set aside (https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...1/RHT-Reduction-of-Mileage.Amat-Set-Aside.pdf) has kicked in and for many, including me, entering has become impossible. The last 3 Wednesdays I've tried to enter 3 tests. I refresh the computer screen at precisely 7 PM Central to eliminate the worker code boxes so I can enter. Even though it's taken me less than one minute to enter every time, I ended up 12 on the waitlist in the first, 9 on the wait list in the second. In the second test, I've now dropped to #5, so I may get in before closing next Monday. Last night, I got to the third screen in less than 20 seconds. I saw that I was only going to be charged $10 and that I would be 22 on the waitlist. At that point, I just backed out of the system. There is no way that 22 dogs will be scratched before closing. It would have been just another waste of $10. In those same three test, some pros got multiple dogs entered. One was able to enter 14 in the first of those tests, 8 in the second and 15 in the third. If we're all using the same system, I fail to see how that's possible. In one of those tests. there were 26 dogs entered early with worker codes. That's fine, but a few entered 2 dogs with worker codes and 1 entered 3 - and those people don't have people to volunteer for them. If a worker code is for volunteering to work, I fail to see how anyone can work 3 jobs.

Requalifying a dog every year for Master National and earning a Master Hunter 75 or whatever is fine, but I believe that the primary purpose should be to Master title a dog. One fix would be to eliminate the requirement to requalify for Master National every year. HRCH dogs are not required to requalify every year for the International Grand. Regardless, we'll never see that happen. One reasonable fix, however, would be to set aside a percentage of the slots for dogs that have not yet titled. It seems to me that an untitled set aside is a reasonable solution -- and, of course, to make sure that we're all entering on the same playing field.

OK, rant over.
Our retriever club decided to join the Master National Club a few years back while I was on the board. We debated the issue of number of entries. We now have more entries than spots available. Entry Express just adds to the problem with multple master entries. The Master National compounds the problem. It's a cluster.
 

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Some of us have a breed that is not eligible for field trials unfortunately. The hunt test game is our only option.
It's unlikely you have 15 of that breed and can't get into a HT by volunteering.
 

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yes i know its a prob and has been for yrs.

I have entered 1 test and was lucky enough to get in. on the Friday and Saturday test. the Saturday test had so many on the wait list the club opened a seconded flight for Sat.

I have entered 2 test for June 1 in GA and one in MS but was under the new Armature spots set aside that opens a day early.
 

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Sorry I used the new AM entry to enter a double master test on Tuesday. I was worried that perhaps it would close up in 5 mins, and yes they got to 21 entries pretty quick, but those were the 35% Am and the worker codes. Which ends up being 23 Am spots, and 9 worker spots so 32 spots; still less than 1/2 the field. There were still a few Am spot left on Wednesday before it opened publicly. Over all I really like the Am option because I'm not competing against list of 10-15 dogs that get put in one shot. I mean I guess I could list 1-2 Ams that have maybe 4 personal dogs, still its not the 10-15. While I have pity for those that still have to do the Wednesday and yes do think they could stop this by having a limit on # of dogs put in at one time, or # of dogs ran by a single handler period. Hopefully the new Am option will get more handlers or even pro clients running their own dogs. Realistically more people their running dogs, equates to shorter times waiting for large input handlers, more volunteers, and maybe even more judges in the future. If you are a Pro and this is your living, or even just a single dog handler. Remember everyone is doing this for free; most of the people throwing your birds, the club members, the judges, are not getting paid and yet they continue to do it. Perhaps start a club and put on a test or two yourself, provide the grounds, have clients staff it etc. The Am 35% is an option and if it's your club you give out the worker codes, plus you put on a test = more tests. Another option give up a running even just 1 test and judge, a bunch of clubs will give out worker spots for people who have judged for them. Pay a kid to throw birds for the club, get in the clubs good graces and yes they do give out workers spots even to Pros.
 
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More options would equal better opportunities for all.

First: clubs.

1. Give club members an option to pay more in dues to trade in money for hours working at tests. If your club's annual dues are $35, give people an option to belong for annual dues of twice that, or three times that or whatever works for you. Lots of clubs do this nowadays.

2. Not everyone can work a test. In my best hunting days, shooting I would have given you 1 in 3 no birds. Now in old age, I would be even more disastrous. ;) Sure, I could marshall, or load wingers, or plant blinds. But don't make people do it for 8 hours a day. Give workers shifts of 4 hours and 4 hours ONLY. That way a club member could enter a dog (s) at a test, work 4 hours on Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday, but still have time to run and take care of their own dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I did not expect that the rule would help. How is it making things worse?
When I said that the am set aside exacerbates the problem I meant only that more slots are taken before some can enter; nothing more. It's not a judgment. But, it one can't enter under the am set aside, fewer slots are available. BTW - I've seen as many as 6 am set aside slots going to the same person.

Perhaps the worker codes, when given to friends, etc. is a bigger problem. As I said in my first post, in one upcoming test, 26 worker codes were given away and and at least 4 got two codes and 1 got three.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Is the am set aside mandatory? I don't think so.
Yes it is. Required for all tests approved by AKC after April 1, 2021. Here's the AKC notice - https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...1/RHT-Reduction-of-Mileage.Amat-Set-Aside.pdf

The reason some pros are able to enter multiple dogs is internet speed. For instance my internet speed is pretty slow compared to the speed when I visit Best Buy and upload a video.
Also if you save all you information on Google the entering process goes much quicker.
Recently my son, for the first time ever, successfully entered his dog in a master test. He is not particularly computer wise but followed the instructions I gave him.
I think it's more than internet speed. I use Google and all of my information automatically populates. That's how I was able to get to the third screen last Wednesday in less than 20 seconds, when I saw I'd be 22 on the waitlist if I completed the entry. It takes my computer 7 seconds to refresh with a fresh screen so I can enter when I refresh at exactly 7 PM Central. I just timed it with the stopwatch on my iPhone to verify how long it takes. From that point, when I click submit to get to the next screen, it instantaneously goes to the next screen. I takes a couple of seconds after the first screen (list of dogs) to scroll down to the submit button. From that point, everything automatically populates. I fail to see how anyone can go faster unless they're using a robot.

I've thought that an untitled dog set aside would be a solution. Perhaps it would but perhaps it would create more problems. Perhaps Eric's idea of EE only permitting someone to enter one dog every thirty seconds would be a better solution. Regardless, in my opinion, a solution is needed.

As a happy aside, I was 9 on the waitlist for an upcoming test that closes next Monday. I dropped to #5 a couple of days ago. Last night, I got a bank alert that EE had submitted a charge to my account. There had been 5 more scratches.
 

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Is the am set aside mandatory? I don't think so. The reason some pros are able to enter multiple dogs is internet speed. For instance my internet speed is pretty slow compared to the speed when I visit Best Buy and upload a video.
Also if you save all you information on Google the entering process goes much quicker.
Recently my son, for the first time ever, successfully entered his dog in a master test. He is not particularly computer wise but followed the instructions I gave him.
Exactly
 

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Everything stems from the qualification requirements of the Master National and Amateur Master National. There's no reason that a dog that already has an ashtray should have to re-qualify to run one of these events. If they could be convinced to eliminate the annual qualification requirement, the weekend tests wouldn't clog up like they do.

What is the reason for requiring a dog to qualify year after year? Limiting MN entries? Generating revenue for AKC? Generating revenue for the MN clubs? Emulating the FT Nationals? Ensuring dogs are truly qualified? How would a dog who's already finished a MN not be qualified? Is anyone asking these questions of the folks who make the decisions for the National clubs? Do the board members of these organizations understand the impact? Maybe. Or maybe since they don't personally have problems getting in, they don't really care.
 
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As of may 12th 757 dogs qualified. How special is that?! Personally I'd rather place in a 25 dog weekend qual than spend two weeks traveling and running the master national. Hell Id rather go spectate or work the real National than compete in the Master National. But thats just me.
I often wonder how much it is costing someone to participate in the MN especially when they are paying someone else to train and handle their dog when they could do it their self :rolleyes:. Wish I had their money.
 

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My observation from worker/Am entry at a recent midwest test. 1st entry A got 3 dogs in, shortly down the list another Am got 5 dogs in. From somewhere I remember that that was a limit of two dogs per Am. Can anyone confirm or absolutely refute my understanding? No I did not get in as W/A was filled in less than 30 seconds. I don't have the solution yet but see movement to the Pro only circuit quietly happening with the mid week tests. Yes I got in Weds eve was very close to last in 2 minutes.
 
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