If you search Esprit out of the Woods (Tiger) there is a thread about him from a few years back that talks about it. Sounds like he just never got his open win. Hope this helps.
Esprit's Out of the Woods ???
I've seen Tiger in a lot of pedigrees and he was apparently a heck of a sire and I would imagine a heck of a dog. Just curious as to why he never titled? Also curious as to the qualities that made him so desirable as a stud even though he was not titled (I know the title does not make the dog but it is rare to see). I certainly don't want anything bad said about anyone's dog but it is something I've wondered for quite some time and no one I know has been able to answer. PM if you prefer.
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Thanks Mike
Have you ever looked at Tiger's pedigree...it's impressive...He has 17 Titled offspring, and 5 Titled siblings (littermate to FC AFC Candlewoods Rita Reynolds, and is a full brother to FC AFC Creek Robber)I've seen Tiger in a lot of pedigrees and he was apparently a heck of a sire and I would imagine a heck of a dog. Just curious as to why he never titled? Also curious as to the qualities that made him so desirable as a stud even though he was not titled (I know the title does not make the dog but it is rare to see). I certainly don't want anything bad said about anyone's dog but it is something I've wondered for quite some time and no one I know has been able to answer. PM if you prefer.
I am biased because we had a female named Kate (lost her last summer to cancer) ...and she might have been one of the straightest lining dogs I have had the pleasure of training with and hunting along side...She was also a very good marker....
Tiger dogs can mark...and they are good to above average lining dogs YMMV
My trainer's were friends with Tiger's orignial owner who was a paraplegic. He was the pick of the litter but due to her limitations and his extreme loyalty to her was not trialed very much. I have two girls from him and a daughter of Ammo and Tubb that are fantastic and absolutely gorgeous. I also am planning a breeding with him and my Mickey (Hockley Creek's Switch Hitter) daughter this fall and will definitely keep at least one of the puppies.
Tiger was an impressive high powered dog who had an Open win but issues associated with the type of dog he was left him short of the points for his FC. Your information was incorrect as he was campaigned extensively.My trainer's were friends with Tiger's orignial owner who was a paraplegic. He was the pick of the litter but due to her limitations and his extreme loyalty to her was not trialed very much. I have two girls from him and a daughter of Ammo and Tubb that are fantastic and absolutely gorgeous. I also am planning a breeding with him and my Mickey (Hockley Creek's Switch Hitter) daughter this fall and will definitely keep at least one of the puppies.
curious to hear more about this, wondering if you’d be willing to elaborate ?Tiger was an impressive high powered dog who had an Open win but issues associated with the type of dog he was left him short of the points for his FC. Your information was incorrect as he was campaigned extensively.
I would not, nothing enlightening and nothing to serve any good purpose. My intent was to point out that he was a very talented dog with a high level of desire which did not always serve him well in competition and that his lack of a title had nothing to do with lack of opportunity.curious to hear more about this, wondering if you’d be willing to elaborate ?
Ok. Thanks.
I would not, nothing enlightening and nothing to serve any good purpose. My intent was to point out that he was a very talented dog with a high level of desire which did not always serve him well in competition and that his lack of a title had nothing to do with the tragic degenerative disease of his first primary owner. He had more than ample opportunities.
What would you like to know about Tiger? I owned him and trained him. He was sold to John & Martha Russell. He placed 2nd in an open a couple of months out of the Derby. I take the blame for campaigning him too young. He developed a control problem at field trials that eventually became his demise. He taught me a lot about the danger of breaking out a young super talented dog too early. He was one of my favorite dogs of all time. He was more talented than 1/2 of the FC AFC’s I ever trained. I would have managed him differently if I could do it all over. I think we all have things that we wish we could have a “Do Over”. Tiger is that for me.
Pat: Can you tell us how you would do it differently now? Thank you for all you do to help people, even people like me who will never run a field trial, understand our dogs better.What would you like to know about Tiger? I owned him and trained him. He was sold to John & Martha Russell. He placed 2nd in an open a couple of months out of the Derby. I take the blame for campaigning him too young. He developed a control problem at field trials that eventually became his demise. He taught me a lot about the danger of breaking out a young super talented dog too early. He was one of my favorite dogs of all time. He was more talented than 1/2 of the FC AFC’s I ever trained. I would have managed him differently if I could do it all over. I think we all have things that we wish we could have a “Do Over”. Tiger is that for me.
How old was he when you sold him?What would you like to know about Tiger? I owned him and trained him. He was sold to John & Martha Russell. He placed 2nd in an open a couple of months out of the Derby. I take the blame for campaigning him too young. He developed a control problem at field trials that eventually became his demise. He taught me a lot about the danger of breaking out a young super talented dog too early. He was one of my favorite dogs of all time. He was more talented than 1/2 of the FC AFC’s I ever trained. I would have managed him differently if I could do it all over. I think we all have things that we wish we could have a “Do Over”. Tiger is that for me.
18 months-ish. He stayed in training with me after being sold.
I would have not attempted to run and progress him as fast. Since then I have been associated with some young talented dogs that either placed or won a trial before they were ready to compete at that level. It’s easy to all of the sudden, treat that dog as a seasoned all-age dog. They are the same dog they were the week before they had a great weekend. Many dogs place early out of naiveness not from a true understanding. It’s easy to overload that young dog. Thanks for a great question!
And there numerous examples of that and most if not all you have known by association with their owners. Gizmo and Cord come to mind but then there are the ones like Cody and Otus who never missed a beat.I would have not attempted to run and progress him as fast. Since then I have been associated with some young talented dogs that either placed or won a trial before they were ready to compete at that level. It’s easy to all of the sudden, treat that dog as a seasoned all-age dog. They are the same dog they were the week before they had a great weekend. Many dogs place early out of naiveness not from a true understanding. It’s easy to overload that young dog. Thanks for a great question!
On a related note, how do you determine which can progress and which should be progressed more slowly. If I understood Ed's comment, what is the observable difference between Cody vs Gizmo that let Cody succeed while Gizmo needed a slower trajectory? Can you tell easily, or is the difference subtle? Signs of too much pressure (mental) in your dog?
If with a pro they usually have a finger on the pulse of the dog's level. Keep building on training and working issues out. Not over training.
Another early bloomer that had issues later on was Chavez.
Jeff
Another early bloomer that had issues later on was Chavez.
Jeff
If you don't rush it you won't have to be able to tell which could and which couldn't.¹
¹from a no pelts perspective.
¹from a no pelts perspective.
I’m changing my post to focus on the topic of Tiger, Esprit’s Out Of The Woods. Here is her pedigree She is an unbelievable Marking dog weighing 46lbs she is very trainable, but tough. Only wants to get to the Marks, doesn’t want you to tell her what to do on the Line, in her mind, she’s doesn’t need your help. Very quiet at home, very intense in the Field. We will not be running any more Field Trials and we are focusing more on Handling Drills, Wagon Wheel and Poison Bird Blinds. Her nickname is the Hell Cat. Callname Yetti
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I removed this post from this discussion which is about Tiger not vocalizing
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