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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got a dog that will be a year old this week, BLM, and we tried for a few days in row to start the double t. Refuses to even go to the back pile a few bumpers into it.

What do you guys do to work around this issue.
 

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We're going to need to know what training method are you using? What have you done so far? Have you been through Force To Pile work?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes been through force to pile work, been running pattern blinds followed Evans program up to force to pile work, then been keeping pace with the training group
 

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Did you do T? You said double T in your OP, but it doesn't sound like you did T.

How far is it, and how many into it before he refuses to go? How hot is it? How high is the cover? Can he see the bumpers from the line?

You're going to need to provide quite a bit more detail before someones going to be able to help you.
 

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Yes been through force to pile work, been running pattern blinds followed Evans program up to force to pile work, then been keeping pace with the training group
I don't understand what this means. If the dog went to the pile when you did FTP, and the dog to casts in simple casting, he should take to the mini T. Deal with refusals at per your program.

One thing I can tell you is that you either missed a step or two altogether, or you didn't do a step or two thoroughly enough.

I didn't look up Evan's program, but I'm very surprised that it calls for running pattern blinds before the TT and swim-by.

Also, you should do all of your training at your dog's level, not at the level of your training group.
 

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In Evans program Pattern blinds (at this point in training while learning T-TT) are to visible known locations that are identified, so they should be easy for the dog to line without handling., so its kind of like FTP to multiple VISIBLE piles 45 degree's apart and slowly streached out over time in such a way that you should not have to handle, and if you did have to handle you would do it the same way you did during FTP (hope that made sense)..
 

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I agree with Capt Jack. Sounds like you didn't do a through job on FTP. When you first start T the first thing you do is establish the baseline, then force to the back pile.
When I say establish the baseline, I mean "teach" it. Start close and work your way out to 100 yds. After you established the T baseline, did you force to the back pile?

I don't have Evan's program but I am familiar with his flow chart and it sounds like you skipped way ahead. Remember, first get the basics down.

I don't work around refusals but deal with them. Sounds like to me you need to go back to FTP.
 

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Sounds like you did pile work on your own and then joined a group for T work? Also sounds like dog doesn't understand pile work when in the group setting? Many dogs will learn something to the point of perfection in one local but will not understand the concept at all in a different local/situation. What you are going to need to do is go back and reteach the pile work concepts in different settings and situations. Different terrain, different distractions, etc. Soccer fields or school playgrounds are great for this as you have the distractions of the kids playing. Just start at a distance and then work closer to the distractions so as to not totally overwhelm the dog all at once with distraction overload. Also, kids playing and dogs playing are 2 different things, so you may need to do a quick revisit the first couple times back in the group situation.

T. Mac
 

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I had one that just simply hated drills. I got him thru FTP and T but not to the level all the other dogs go thru it. Got the idea down then moved on. He turned into a real nice gun dog that was running senior level blinds when I sold him.
 

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I am of the opinion that the drill isn't as important as the skill it develops. The tee is a tough one for many dogs because in essence we lie to them repeatedly while running it. Smart dogs know you are just going to stop them to handle to a different location than where you lined them initially and if they are keen, they will line themselves up to one of the side piles in anticipation, then when you get them straightened for the back pile you prove they were correct and you stop them to cast in a direction 90* to the line they are on.

If your dog is frustrated by Tee work but liked 3 legged blind drills send them on line to one pile then cast them at a point where a left or right over gets them to a different pile, perhaps because of the wider spread of this pattern it seems not to produce the same confusion and sense of being lied to as in the Tee. The skill we are developing in a young dog is stopping to a whistle command and taking a cast at distance from you, you can always go back to the tee once these mechanics are in place, if you still wish....but by that time you may just have what you want in a handling dog already.

JMHO
 

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I am of the opinion that the drill isn't as important as the skill it develops. The tee is a tough one for many dogs because in essence we lie to them repeatedly while running it. Smart dogs know you are just going to stop them to handle to a different location than where you lined them initially and if they are keen, they will line themselves up to one of the side piles in anticipation, then when you get them straightened for the back pile you prove they were correct and you stop them to cast in a direction 90* to the line they are on.

If your dog is frustrated by Tee work but liked 3 legged blind drills send them on line to one pile then cast them at a point where a left or right over gets them to a different pile, perhaps because of the wider spread of this pattern it seems not to produce the same confusion and sense of being lied to as in the Tee. The skill we are developing in a young dog is stopping to a whistle command and taking a cast at distance from you, you can always go back to the tee once these mechanics are in place, if you still wish....but by that time you may just have what you want in a handling dog already.

JMHO
I any of this happens on the T, you aren't doing it correctly.

Never a good idea IMO for a new trainer to abandon a proven program and start feelancing.
 

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Yes been through force to pile work, been running pattern blinds followed Evans program up to force to pile work, then been keeping pace with the training group
I question the thoroughness of the force work of a dog that won't go under any circumstances. I've been in this position in times past when a trainer had gone through the steps, but had not truly adequately completed force work. It's not like he has a choice unless this is true. How do you feel about that? Do you think there may be a deficit there?

Yes, I see no difference in running the simple pattern blinds suggested in Smartwork and running a 100 yard pile as we all do in FTP. In Smartwork the first PB's are only 30-40 yards long, and progress in stages on new patterns. But that sounds like it may be ahead of where this dog is.

Evan
 

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how many dogs should a person have put through a double T afore they are allowed to look at other drills?
You don't have to do the TT at all, so I'd say none. But a new person attempting to get, what we call, a finished dog by haphazzardly doing drills to build this skill and that skill will likely not be successful. And I'd bet money that they wouldn't be as succesful as if they had followed an established, comprehensive program to the letter.

Bigger point is that if you are having all of the problems on the TT that the post I replied to mentioned, you are doing it wrong.
 

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Seems clear that the OP started out with some training plan or "program", which includes TT (he says he uses Smartwork).

But then he fell into the common trap of meeting up with his buddies/training group and disregarding the system he was following and trying to do what the rest of the group was doing, without the necessary prerequisites. Now he's wondering why his dog won't do TT even though he's a year old.

Won't work well.

JS
 

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Seems clear that the OP started out with some training plan or "program", which includes TT (he says he uses Smartwork).

But then he fell into the common trap of meeting up with his buddies/training group and disregarding the system he was following and trying to do what the rest of the group was doing, without the necessary prerequisites. Now he's wondering why his dog won't do TT even though he's a year old.

Won't work well.

JS
This is the way I see it as well.

And regarding dogs that have trouble on the TT or any step in the program, well that's one of the benefits from doing each step. Working through the problems is what builds the skills.

Is FF complete, well lets do walking fetch fetch to make sure. Is FF complete after walking fetch, well lets do stick fetch to make sure. Is FF complete after stick fetch, well lets do some simple casting work to make sure... It goes on and on, and working through the problems you encounter while going through the process is what engrains the desired behaviors and builds the skills. IMO, giving up on the TT or any step in the program too quickly is a big mistake especially for a new trainer.
 

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I only do single T not TT. But I went back and reread the OP. Sounds to me like he is still trying to establish the baseline and is getting refusals after two times to the back pile. Also, sounds like the over piles are not out yet. So whether it is T or TT hasn't become a factor yet. I don't think getting refusals at this point is the time to move on to something else.
I still think that FTP wasn't done thoroughly and it should be revisited.

I would sure like to read an explanation of how he "started" double T. There is lots of information missing that would be benefical to all.
 
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