[Dave Combs]

Seeing the old pics in the Corky thread made me think of a statement I overheard one day at a NAHRA Senior test. A professional trainer was in the gallery and commented that 'this test is about what you would have seen in an open 25-30 years ago".
So I was wondering how true that statement was? Would any of you who have been in the game that long compare an AKC Master level/NAHRA Senior level test to what FT's were 25-30 years ago? Have FT's evolved to the distances and difficulty they are as the dogs were bred better and better?.......and as HT's entered the scene?

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Yep. Go grab some RFTJ from the 70's.

/Paul

 

[AmiableLabs]

It is true, the Qs of today were the AA stakes back then. But if you talk to the old-timers they say the dogs back then could have ran the level of tests today if they had been trained to this level. It is about the quality of the dog.

Could Babe Ruth hit 700 home runs today? Most experts say "yes," because as pitchers evolved in conditioning so did the batters. It is about the quality of the player.

 

[EdA]

So I was wondering how true that statement was? Would any of you who have been in the game that long compare an AKC Master level/NAHRA Senior level test to what FT's were 25-30 years ago?

Since I have never seen a Hunt Test I have no basis for a comparison, however it is my understanding that there are distance limitations for retrieves at Hunt Tests. 25 or 30 years age we were training and competing at distances that far exceed anything seen in a Hunt Test with any type of distance limitation.

 

[mjh345]

Better breeding, better training, better ecollars, better information and better communication have all played apart in the need for more challenging trials to seperate the dogs. AINT IT GREAT!!!!

 

[Richard Halstead]

In the 1950 National nearly every test had a "staunching" test where the live flyer was shot near the line and in some cases the bird was thrown from behind the dog falling into the setup. Some of the high rollers seemed to eliminate themselves when they broke.

 

[Uncle Bill]

A dear friend of mine, now deceased, Howard Jacobs, had a dog named Chico that ran in the Nat'l Am in 1954 if I recall correctly. When we started into AKC hunt tests at Mt. Rushmore Retriever Club in 1986, he and I were the Master judges for the sanctioned test. (Howard was one of the founders of the MRRC and favored our club entering into the hunt testing program, because he saw it as important for our area. Many trialing clubs in our region didn't share his insight.)

The tests we set up for our miniscule group of 6 or 8 entries, (one of those being Bob May and his Buddy dog), was almost the equivalent to what Chico ran at the National thirty some years prior, I recall Howard remarking. He also said something to the effect that he didn't think the NFC trials King Buck won were much tougher...only more tests.

FWIW, I'd like to see you attend a hunt test or two, Ed. It would be enlightening to get your views on what you see.

UB

 

[EdA]

The tests we set up for our miniscule group of 6 or 8 entries, (one of those being Bob May and his Buddy dog), was almost the equivalent to what Chico ran at the National thirty some years prior, I recall Howard remarking. He also said something to the effect that he didn't think the NFC trials King Buck won were much tougher...only more tests.

and that was 20 years ago, so we're talking about 50 years, not 25 or 30.

Tri Tronics collars came along in the mid 60s, after that everything changed alot and those slow to adapt fell very far behind. Amateurs almost totally dominated the National scene from 1970 until 1985, a period when only 4 pros won the National Open.

Electronic training collars and training techniques were the big cause of change and that revolution began 40 years ago

 

[Criquetpas]

It is true, the Qs of today were the AA stakes back then. But if you talk to the old-timers they say the dogs back then could have ran the level of tests today if they had been trained to this level. It is about the quality of the dog.

Could Babe Ruth hit 700 home runs today? Most experts say "yes," because as pitchers evolved in conditioning so did the batters. It is about the quality of the player.

Don't let anyone kid you that "boy" could mark!! AND with todays standards of training would still be up in the record books!. He did have a over run tendency, but, that could be addressed with todays training methods.

Earl

 

[Ken Guthrie]

Electronic training collars and training techniques were the big cause of change and that revolution began 40 years ago

So my guess is you were about 40-45 years old when you first started using the collar?

:lol: :lol:

 

[EdA]

So my guess is you were about 40-45 years old when you first started using the collar? :lol: :lol:

Actually I bought my first Tri Tronics collar (an A 70) in 1971 (I was 25) and it cost $299. At the time as an employed veterinarian with 2 years experience I was making about $850/month so an outright purchase was out of my budget. I bought it on the easy pay 9 month no interest plan. 8)

I had brand spanking new Chevrolet Blazer ($5000), 2 Airborne crates (the finest aluminum crate made) and a lousy yellow dog that I thought was great :wink:

 

[Ken Guthrie]

So my guess is you were about 40-45 years old when you first started using the collar? :lol: :lol:

Actually I bought my first Tri Tronics collar (an A 70) in 1971 (I was 25) and it cost $299. At the time as an employed veterinarian with 2 years experience I was making about $850/month so an outright purchase was out of my budget. I bought it on the easy pay 9 month no interest plan. 8)

I had brand spanking new Chevrolet Blazer ($5000), 2 Airborne crates (the finest aluminum crate made) and a lousy yellow dog that I thought was great :wink:

So now after all those years and experience matched by none...........

You now spend your weekends training with guys like me.

Damn you've gone downhill quick regards,

Gut

 

[EdA]

Damn you've gone downhill quick regards,
Gut

and I'd like to kill that SOB who took me to a field trial in 1969

:wink:

 

[Ken Guthrie]

Damn you've gone downhill quick regards,
Gut

and I'd like to kill that SOB who took me to a field trial in 1969

:wink:

And I'd like to kill that vet who recommended formal training.
:wink:

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Gut

and I'd like to kill that SOB who took me to a field trial in 1969

:wink:

Oh ya, just think if he had taken you to the golden speciality.....be grateful for what didn't happen....

/Paul

 

[Criquetpas]

The collar did bring about the vanguard of what we have today hands down, the advent of the titled bitches ( rather then a brood bitch) and training methods have certainly changed. The game of the pre-70's was still dominated by the wealthy and the Pro's. I sent a letter to join the Midwest Retriever Club in the early 60' s to be told by the then Dr. George Gardner to perhaps make application to the AARC (American Amateur Retriever Club) as they would be more "suited" to my "needs".
I was a young Police Officer with three kids, no money in a game dominated by the wealthy and the Pro's. It also probably "hurt" I had a no name bred Golden Retriever at the time. I gave up drag racing to do dogs?! and have been stuck since.

Having said all that the E-collar was about to change the world of Field Trial Retriever Training. There were HOWEVER a small group of amateurs in the mid 1960's through the 1970's that beat ALL odds. Joe Pilar is being very modest along with John, Dick Dallasassee and others. Working stiffs, printers, night shift workers, electricians, cops, Vets, who aren't noted for making a lot of money. They might not have made the "big time, but, made Field Champions, Amateur Field Champions, competed at some Nationals and one guy , a night shift worker from the Gary Indiana area had the gall to win the National Amateur (Joe Pilar) all amateur trained and handled dogs!

One thing all the these dogs had in common they for the most part could mark. I will go out on a limb with this one, but, you can train most field bred retrievers to do blinds , not great blinds, but blinds, YOU CAN'T TEACH THEM TO MARK!! For the most part many of these older dogs of fame could do that AND were intelligent enough to be trained. So given the advent of the e-collar, the magnficent trainers who helped develope the means to use the tools and the breeding that took place, the dogs of today were born. Now, I will ask where did they come from?! the dogs ?

Earl

 

[Buzz]

So now after all those years and experience matched by none...........

You now spend your weekends training with guys like me.

Damn you've gone downhill quick regards,

Gut

Just goes to show you what a charitable soul Ed is huh? :wink:

 

[Uncle Bill]

There's no doubt in my mind that there were great dogs as far back as we want to go, that given today's methods and training regiman would do just as well as the well bred dogs of this era.

But how can we measure what was to what is? I'm betting Tank, or Cody would have done better than a Corky or a King Buck, only because they did things never dreamed of back then. I'm sure all are saying, but those dogs could have done it had they had the training. But would they have been receptive to today's training?

One of the posts dealing with this topic made reference to a Babe Ruth. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have made the top ten in todays game. He'd be in the ranks of many of our current 'designated' hitters. If he had to compete in the nighttime games, and give up his lifestyle to stay competitive, I'm guessing he'd have washed out.

I'll probably be strung up for my sacrilege, but I seriously don't think the Babe would have lasted more than 10 years in the bigs. If he were in the National league, it would even be a shorter stint. When I think of a modern day Ruth, I think of a Dave Kingman, or David Ortiz. Both could field better than Ruth, but that wasn't why they are or were on a team.

Barry Bonds would have done himself a favor by getting into the American league. He's become a joke in the field, and it's a crime to see someone with his credentials deteriorate like that.

Todays collar conditioned dogs are a breed apart from what our forefathers trained IMHO. Certainly there are far more qualified members of this board to asses that view more astutely. I only say that having also been in the transition period of dog training...from a full blown amish dude to a CC kinda guy. I had a couple of dogs that never made that transition, and I hardly train dogs. The folks that do the basics for the Farmer and Lardy camps wash out dogs every day that are plenty good enough for me. I owned one, thank God.

We in the hunt test game hardly have a clue what is demanded of the trialing dogs today. It's doubtful many of us ever will.

UB

 

[Marvin S]

Attending & participating in Field Trials in the mid-60's I can't remember the use of many white coats in the field. The camouflage kept the marks shorter. & if not mistaken, the use of white coats in the field came about to allow the gun stations to locate each other for safety reasons. As with all things in the Field Trial game the white coat thing led to longer marks.

Marvin Sundstrom