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I figured it was about time that I ask a training question on the board! I'm following Lardy's stuff by the book, to the letter so far and it seems to be going well with my 9 month old pup.

We are at the end of pile work and I'll start the "come-in" whistle with the bumper tossed between myself and him today. (with the come-in and the back cast mixed in after a whistle stop).

Mike writes about working on a straight sit at this stage, which makes a whole lot of sense. I'm sure it takes a knack to get this worked through, while not nitpicking and nagging pup on the bigger task - to sit on the whistle and cast back or come in.

Currently, I'm sometimes giving a little tug on the rope (when I've stopped him on a rope) with a toot-toot-toot, then sitting him and casting. Or, if he's not on lead, or if the rope's length is shorter than his distance from me, I"ll toot him in a couple feet and sit him, then cast. My hunch is that some of this will smooth out a bit anyway as his anticipation of a come-in will likely get a more solid turn to face me (this is how I did it in the Amish days)

Right now, he's running hard and straight with no flaring, bugging or other issues...but we have a bit of a looping sit which puts him a yard or two offline to the right with a bit of a crooked sit.

Any helpful hints?

Thanks!

Chris (who seriously regrets ever commenting on grammar use on this board a few years ago.... We all make mistakes.... We all say or write things we wish we could take back!)
 

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Re: Finesse Question - Lardy Program...crooked sits on pile

Chris Atkinson said:
I figured it was about time that I ask a training question on the board! I'm following Lardy's stuff by the book, to the letter so far and it seems to be going well with my 9 month old pup.

We are at the end of pile work and I'll start the "come-in" whistle with the bumper tossed between myself and him today. (with the come-in and the back cast mixed in after a whistle stop).

Mike writes about working on a straight sit at this stage, which makes a whole lot of sense. I'm sure it takes a knack to get this worked through, while not nitpicking and nagging pup on the bigger task - to sit on the whistle and cast back or come in.

Currently, I'm sometimes giving a little tug on the rope (when I've stopped him on a rope) with a toot-toot-toot, then sitting him and casting. Or, if he's not on lead, or if the rope's length is shorter than his distance from me, I"ll toot him in a couple feet and sit him, then cast. My hunch is that some of this will smooth out a bit anyway as his anticipation of a come-in will likely get a more solid turn to face me (this is how I did it in the Amish days)

Right now, he's running hard and straight with no flaring, bugging or other issues...but we have a bit of a looping sit which puts him a yard or two offline to the right with a bit of a crooked sit.

Any helpful hints?

Thanks!

Chris (who seriously regrets ever commenting on grammar use on this board a few years ago.... We all make mistakes.... We all say or write things we wish we could take back!)
In my limited experience, I think you're doing the right things. I would add, though, that at some point, once you think he understands, you would stop using the rope and use a low "nick" with your "toot-toot" command.

The dog begins to understand that, and it transfers into the field. You get a crooked sit, and you give a "toot-toot ... nick .... tooooot." It all depends on consistency, though.

I wouldn't ever let a dog continue after giving a crooked sit. At least make them straighten up without pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Finesse Question - Lardy Program...crooked sits on pile

Charles C. said:
Chris Atkinson said:
I figured it was about time that I ask a training question on the board! I'm following Lardy's stuff by the book, to the letter so far and it seems to be going well with my 9 month old pup.

We are at the end of pile work and I'll start the "come-in" whistle with the bumper tossed between myself and him today. (with the come-in and the back cast mixed in after a whistle stop).

Mike writes about working on a straight sit at this stage, which makes a whole lot of sense. I'm sure it takes a knack to get this worked through, while not nitpicking and nagging pup on the bigger task - to sit on the whistle and cast back or come in.

Currently, I'm sometimes giving a little tug on the rope (when I've stopped him on a rope) with a toot-toot-toot, then sitting him and casting. Or, if he's not on lead, or if the rope's length is shorter than his distance from me, I"ll toot him in a couple feet and sit him, then cast. My hunch is that some of this will smooth out a bit anyway as his anticipation of a come-in will likely get a more solid turn to face me (this is how I did it in the Amish days)

Right now, he's running hard and straight with no flaring, bugging or other issues...but we have a bit of a looping sit which puts him a yard or two offline to the right with a bit of a crooked sit.

Any helpful hints?

Thanks!

Chris (who seriously regrets ever commenting on grammar use on this board a few years ago.... We all make mistakes.... We all say or write things we wish we could take back!)
In my limited experience, I think you're doing the right things. I would add, though, that at some point, once you think he understands, you would stop using the rope and use a low "nick" with your "toot-toot" command.

The dog begins to understand that, and it transfers into the field. You get a crooked sit, and you give a "toot-toot ... nick .... tooooot." It all depends on consistency, though.

I wouldn't ever let a dog continue after giving a crooked sit. At least make them straighten up without pressure.
Thanks brother Charles,

Sometimes the articles and tapes run together in my mind, despite my daily reading and re-reading of the articles. I know somewhere Mike touches on the "correction" you mention.

One of the things I really like about "the program" is the stress on fairness and teaching. Like the rest of this stuff, I'd imagine the sit stuff will come together and thought one or two of you may have a neat tip for this step.

This stuff is so therapeutic for me! I LOVE training a young dog!

Chris
 
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I will give one tip and have to head back out to work...

This is something that you've hopefully been reinforcing when you were in your basic OB, CC and 3HC -- as far as "requiring" (i.e., helping into in many cases) a square sit. Dog should understand to sit square.

Then it's the toot-toot (very quick) tooot (sharp, regular sit whistle). like tt-tt (minisculishly longer pause) toot. It's NOT a come-in trill. So it's got to sound different.

To this point, I have also taught (just by doing it every time the dog is at a remote sit at any time in training) the dog that both my hands down on the front of my legs means sit squarely in front of me. So as I do the tt-tt, my hands act as a signal to square up.

I will also waggle whichever hand out to the side that shows the dog which way they need to pivot their front feet to sit properly...

Soooo... You sit the dog and he's crooked.

I give the tt-tt (as I do, I'm waggling my hand left or right, whichever one will give him the proper pivot) and then I quickly bring my hands to center (in front of my legs) as I'm giving the final toot for the straight sit. This all happens literally within a few seconds if not less.

Dog should NOT get up and move on this. He may the first time or two you try it. A squaring up of a sit should involve front end motion ONLY, not a lot of extra movement and not getting up, coming in 10 feet. Butt stays planted. At first they may need to come in a LITTLE to get it. But over time, they should just pivot in their front feet to become square.

Once you feel he understands what you're asking in terms of the whistle and squaring up, you can then start adding the nick and you'll see it less and less very quickly and it will be gone. Then once in a while down the line in transitional training, you'll see it here and there and it usually doesn't warrant a correction (just manual fix). If it becomes chronic or habitual, you come back to where you are now and fix it with correction, then go back out and run more blinds...

-K
 

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Chris,

Assuming you are concerned about whistle sits away from you rather than at your side..in addition to the steps Kristie mentioned I've had good results by having the handler give a slight bow at the waist while giving the little toot-toot to straighten them up. Eventually, all it takes is the little bow at the waist without the little toot-toot.

Jeff
 
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jeff t. said:
Chris,

Assuming you are concerned about whistle sits away from you rather than at your side..in addition to the steps Kristie mentioned I've had good results by having the handler give a slight bow at the waist while giving the little toot-toot to straighten them up. Eventually, all it takes is the little bow at the waist without the little toot-toot.

Jeff
Yeah, I bow when my hands are on my legs (kind of like a 1/4 toe-touch)

And I guess I bend a little to the side.

It all does help. At a test if a dog has a crooked sit and I'm concerned I won't get a good cast of it, I'll just do the forward "toe touch" bend and the dog will square up without a whistle.

-K
 

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Kristie Wilder said:
jeff t. said:
Chris,

Assuming you are concerned about whistle sits away from you rather than at your side..in addition to the steps Kristie mentioned I've had good results by having the handler give a slight bow at the waist while giving the little toot-toot to straighten them up. Eventually, all it takes is the little bow at the waist without the little toot-toot.

Jeff
Yeah, I bow when my hands are on my legs (kind of like a 1/4 toe-touch)

And I guess I bend a little to the side.

It all does help. At a test if a dog has a crooked sit and I'm concerned I won't get a good cast of it, I'll just do the forward "toe touch" bend and the dog will square up without a whistle.

-K
Is that 28degree bow or more of a 33degree?

/Paul
 

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Chris,

One quick comment on looping sits. A second quick whistle can sometimes speed up the sit. Depending on where the dog is in training and why the sits are loopy a nick may be used with this second toot. As you progress in yard work and then to blinds a loopy sit can be a form of avoidance. Having the tool to correct this now is nice as opposed to devloping later.

Have fun,

Tom
 
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Gun_Dog2002 said:
Kristie Wilder said:
jeff t. said:
Chris,

Assuming you are concerned about whistle sits away from you rather than at your side..in addition to the steps Kristie mentioned I've had good results by having the handler give a slight bow at the waist while giving the little toot-toot to straighten them up. Eventually, all it takes is the little bow at the waist without the little toot-toot.

Jeff
Yeah, I bow when my hands are on my legs (kind of like a 1/4 toe-touch)

And I guess I bend a little to the side.

It all does help. At a test if a dog has a crooked sit and I'm concerned I won't get a good cast of it, I'll just do the forward "toe touch" bend and the dog will square up without a whistle.

-K
Is that 28degree bow or more of a 33degree?

/Paul
Hmm.... let's say it's 140 degrees in a total toe touch divided by four... So 35 degrees.

-K
 
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