RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
173 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know there are a lot of Force Fetch questions and tried to find the answer to my question before posting this but didn’t find what I was looking for so this is where I am at:

I have completed my Collar Condition with my 7mo pup. I have started my FF process this week following Tom Dokkens Force fetch program. Here is his step-by-step:

Hand in Mouth Drill
Advanced Hand in Mouth
Teaching Force Fetch
Intro to the Fetching Stick
Force Fetch on the Walking Table
Holding Different Objects
Force Fetch on the Ground

So at this point I am on Hand in Mouth Drill (I have about 12 very short sessions 1-2mins with this) where I open the his mouth and have him hold my hand. He is very good at allowing me to open his mouth and very good at hold. I feel like I am at the point to move to Advanced Hand In Mouth where you start to use ear pinch but what I ran into the last 2 sessions when I used pressure on his ear he would just clinch he mouth and is very difficult to get my hand in because he is just clinching his teeth together. So I would take a step back to what he understands that when there is pressure of me grabbing the top of his mouth to my put my hand in he instantly opens his mouth and reaches for my hand. I can tell he obviously doesn’t get the ear pressure but understands the pressure of me opening his mouth as he reaches for my hand as soon as I get his mouth half way open.

Any ideas on transitioning my pressure from the roof of his mouth and pressure to his ear and getting him to open his mouth at least a little?

Or am I doing the right thing by pinching his ear and getting my hand in any way I can and this becomes a repetition thing to where I pinch his ear he will eventually understand that I am trying to get him to open his mouth and hold? I don’t feel like this is the right thing to do… and there is an easier/better way of getting to understand what I am trying to do.

As a side note I am taking my time on this as I have obviously never FF’d a dog before so if it takes me longer I am perfectly fine with that I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. I know I am probably better off bring him to a Pro and having him do this but don’t have the money right now and I would rather learn this for future dogs of my own.

Thanks ahead of time for anyones response or suggestions.
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
244 Posts
I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,252 Posts
I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.
So you have a dog that won't hold a bumper, but you're telling someone else to change from the method he is following to the one you are following?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,426 Posts
I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.
So you didn't teach hold before fetch?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
I saw a pro put a string on the dogs toes. Just very slight pressure and do force fetch with no ear pinch. It puts a little stress on the dog. Hurts nothing. Different method. I think better then sticking you hand in a dogs mouth. I have done clicker training too. Whatever method you would like to use. There are several out there. Depends on the dog. Now my dogs open up the mouth but will not hold.
Robert Milner was a proponent of the paw hitch method--thirty years ago! He and just about everyone else has moved on.

FPA Ammo- I'm not familiar with Dokken's Force Fetch, is there a verbal command accompanying the pressure?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
244 Posts
Well the dog I was talking about will never go to a hunt test. She is 6 years old. I doubt that I would ever force fetch her. Just a pet. Now my other 2 goldens do hold and fetch without much pressure at all. I am not a big proponent of "force" methods. I use more positive training methods that have since been introduced by other trainers. Each method is different depending on what goals you are working towards. If you plan on going to the upper levels than the force methods have to used. Now I have seen other people use the "Amish" styles. For me the jury is still out. I have the Dokken video's. I have just about everyone's video's on training. Books included. Now I work in other venues besides field which teach praise. Dogs catch on much quicker with positive methods. I would suggest the fellow on the forum go to some workshops given by some of the good pro's. Or like me work with a pro or two. All have things to offer you can't get in video's. You can find a group to train with that is good. You can learn from others and decide what methods you want to use. That is all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
Teach him how to turn the pressure off with a command he already knows. In my case I take the sit command which the dog knows very well put him on the table, command sit and put pressure on his earuntil he sits. The dog knows sit, it doesn't take long for him to figure out the fast he sits the faster the pressure goes away. By this time he is used to me putting something in his mouth, now I tell him fetch, put pressure on, put dowel in mouth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,425 Posts
I think the clinched mouth is fairly common. My techique is to hold the bumper with my thumb and first finger. Then use the other three fingers to pry the mouth open, then slide the bumper in. It takes a little coordination but it works. Just keep at and he will catch on. Lots of praise when he gets the bumper in his mouth. Have him hold for only a second or so at first. Then keep extending the time.

I have used both ear pinch and toe hitch. Some hard headed dogs take best to the toe hitch.

I am not familiar with the method you are using but I always teach hold before I go on to ff. I get the dog to hold the bumper on the table for three minutes then put him on the ground and do basic ob with the bumper in the mouth. Then I move on to ff.

Hope this helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,354 Posts
It sound like to me that you have already established the hold with the glove hand ( command HOLD) I never require the dog to open his mouth untile the fetch part of the training. I open the dogs mouth with my hand and place the object in. While holding the dogs mouth closed with two fingers I rub the side of their face and say HOLD. I start the process with a cut off broom stick raped with duck tape because if they drop the object I will give them a ear pinch and replace the object by twesting it back in from the side of their mouth. Once the dog is holding the stick, I will tap on both sides to cement the command. Again if they drop it I will give then a ear pinch and replace the object as soon as the object in in their mouth, I release the pressure. When they are working well with the stick, I will move to a differant object. From weighted object, brushes, bumpers to birds. Then I will go to the ground and do it all over with bumper and birds ( At heel and remote to delivery).
Hope this helps
Keith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,601 Posts
It seems to me asking someone about what to do next if they aren't familiar with Tom Dokken's FF method could possibly elicit the wrong approach. I did not know what Dokken's method was. Therefore, rather than give you "my best quess", I simply went to his website and found a video in which he was working with a dog at the same stage as yours. There were a few points he made that you didn't. First he stated his dogs are pre-conditioned to "turning off pressure" during OB. That may make sense (or not), but it is a critical step in training leading up to FF.

Secondly (and to repeat), the video was in exactly the stage you are dealing with. It seems before FF, he pre-conditions his pups to touching their ears and giving them treats. He said treat training is not a regular event, but in this special case it pre-conditions the pup to "reach for something with an open mouth" when touching their ears. Then he demonstrated with the dog this simple treat vs. ear pre-conditioning. Did you do any of that?

In addition, from what I gathered in listening, he does not do "hold" first. So there you go, apparently a step (or two) is missing (one of which is not "hold").
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
Hey Kwick do you mind giving a link? I am also using Dokken and the ear/treat doesnt sound familiar (i reread the book chaptersnightly where we are and going) FF is a few months out but at 12-20 wks we are in hand in mouth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,601 Posts
I "Googled" force fetch Tom Dokken and brought up several links. After writing an RTF post with the specific link, I tested the link in preview mode and ended up with a red "x". I'm not sure why, but do your own search and click on the link titled "starting your dog Force Fetching".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Op,

It's just an avoidance that your dog is displaying.....he knows the command by now but doesn't understand the pressure.......open his mouth and stick your hand or bumper in and the let off his ear. Usually starting out won't require much pressure. Don't let him win by allowing the behavior. Be consistant and continue to pinch until compliance. Than be very happy when you get the bumper and/or hand in his mouth. Some dogs understand immediately some dogs don't. Relax and just talk calmly to your dog while applying the pressure. If you get frustrated the dog has won. You will have plenty of these mini battles to come....

A lot of "you're doing it wrong" on here but it's just a fact of force fetch. I takes time and consistency...remember bend not break. The more calm you are the more calm your dog will be. DON'T LET HIM WIN.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,425 Posts
Good research Kwiklabs. I had never heard of this method. More than one way to skin a cat. But I don't think I will ever go there.

Probably won't find much help with this technique on this forum as most follow the traditional "hold". But I could be wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
173 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank for the help it is very needed. Last night I decided to go ahead and use a broom stick handle and have him hold and it was like I just performed a magic trick or something, as soon as I put it in his mouth... TA DA holding the the stick. Like I said in my original post he was/is very good with hand in mouth and holding never thought to just move to an actual object and have him hold. Dokkens video doesnt have him doing it that way so didnt like to move on to something different but what I am hearing that the way Dokken teach Hold/FF is well basically there are better methods and easier way of doing it. I did order TRT 2nd earlier this week and I am hoping to get it today so if that the case I am going to switch gear. I know I need to stick with one program but after posting that I am following Dokkens program I have heard that it would be a better idea to following a different one.

KWICKLABS: just after a day of reading and great suggestions I get with what you said with pressure "on" pressure "off" and havent followed program to where my dog doesnt get that form of training so I found my self getting frustrated but can understand now that he is missing a few things in his program.

DALE: I like your idea of using ear pinch to sit and feel that may help me with understandnig ear pressure I like that. Thank you

WAYNE: After last night I going to stick with my hold command as you have probably read through this post that he understood hold as I transitioned to an object. Thank You

Jmonte35: I get frustrated to quick some times and before blaming the dog I step back and just breath and calm down... I know the second I give in or get mad I loose but that why enjoy this because I love the learning of all of it and enjoy teaching everything I can to him.

As I am typing this post I figured I would share these pictures. this is our "Hold" table that we work on and he decided to wait for me to work on hold as there is LOTS of praise with him on his table. You can tell he enjoys being up there :)




 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,425 Posts
You can get a little headstart on TRT2 by going to Lardy's website and he has a free downloadable website. Mike starts off using a bumper for hold rather than a training buck or stick.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,601 Posts
FPAAmmo, I have to say you've taken what has been posted and done a good job of moving forward. Recognizing "where you are at" and making adjustments for the dog's sake is a training skill not easily developed early on.

Basically, when a dog "isn't getting it", the trainer needs to change up his approach. That being said, it often difficult to receive accurate help from anyone not familiar with exactly where you and the dog are. The useful thing about any post is it forces the OP to think and adjust (or not) which is a very different mindset compared to just following directions.

Good for you!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
506 Posts
for some reason novice trainers think that going slow is the fix for lack of knowledge, it's not. overteaching is a common mistake made by beginner trainiers. it's time to move ahead, you're boaring the hell out of your dog---get off the hand and go to a bumper, move on. Teach the command until you are positive the animal understands what is expected, then force it, then give your trainee a little time to live with his new level of discipline before going to the next command
good luck
GG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
173 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
FPAAmmo, I have to say you've taken what has been posted and done a good job of moving forward. Recognizing "where you are at" and making adjustments for the dog sake is a training skill not easily developed early on.

Basically, when a dog "isnt' getting it", the trainer needs to change up his approach. That being said, it often difficult to receive accurate help from anyone not familiar with exactly where you and the dog are. The useful thing about any post is it forces the OP to think and adjust (or not) which is a very different mindset compared to just following directions.

Good for you!
Thank you I appreciate that a lot! with having a lot to learn its difficult to digest all the information and correctly. This is my first crack at training my own dog and feel very accoplished already with how far along I am. I am very excited for my fall hunting season that is just around the corner to see how well he does. I am sure my mind set will change from hunting for "me" to hunting for "Him"

Thanks
Mike
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top