[Lindschesapeake]

Several weeks ago I posted asking for suggestions on my dogs refusal to pick up object off of table. All other work (hold, fetch out of hand, fetch object at various positions) went well but complete refusal to fetch off of table.

Many suggestions given, some good others way off the wall.

Here is what I came up with.

Used dog's love to retreive and worked in backyard
Short tosses with fetch command given
Initial hesitation but worked through
Made fetch command a fun command
After a few weeks of this went back to table and worked through the problem without any difficulties
Dog now fetches and holds while my other dog is sent for retreive.
Still some sharpness to work on but dog didn't loose enthusisam to retrieve
taking dog an short walks requring him to hold and carry a log weighing 5 pounds
Will work on proper fetch while switching to birds
Through the remainder of summer dog will get a variety of work with pigeons
Work on steadiness to flush and shot bird with fetch as the reward.

By the end of summer I hope to have dog ready for a full season of chasing pheasants and relaxing in a duck blind once and awhile

Lesson learned: sometimes you must keep to what turns the dog on and not follow the normal process

 

[Guest]

This does work for some dogs and is a good way to keep attitude up and help them "get it right" in a positive way.

The only POSSIBLE issue is that it can give you a false sense of security.

Force fetch isn't just about picking something up and holding it. More than that, it's about the ABILITY to intelligently, willingly and stable-y deal with pressure.
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What you MAY have done is remove the pressure and you have a FF that will work when the dog isn't facing diffuclty and training is "fun". But when things get difficult or demanding, it may not hold up.

NOW... I have a dog here RIGHT NOW that I've done this with. And I've had several others. Their dogs that tend to balk with pressure and quit the lesson, but in a stubborn (not sensitive) way.

I had to do the same thing with him and actually went to 3HC to loosen him up.

The issue becomes that he DOES need to handle pressure without balking later on (of course, pressure needs to be fair and appopriate).

I'm just giving you a heads up. What you did was a great idea that generally works, but can also be a patch for a dog that will later balk when things get more difficult. So keep an eye open to that...

-K

 

[Southern Rebel]

Lesson learned: sometimes you must keep to what turns the dog on and not follow the normal process

Especially when you have a Chesapeake!

Now that you have him liking the fetch & hold, I would suggest going back and applying a little pressure. This is what we had to do with ours, so even when he doesn't want to fetch & hold (like when he would rather get the next one!) he will do it.

 

[Tall Gunner]

Used dog's love to retreive and worked in backyard
Short tosses with fetch command given
Initial hesitation but worked through
Made fetch command a fun command
After a few weeks of this went back to table and worked through the problem without any difficulties

I think you guys missed the bold highlighted sentence. :?

 

[Southern Rebel]

Ahhh, just what I love about RTF... always someone close by to point out your shortcomings!

 

[Tall Gunner]

Ahhh, just what I love about RTF... always someone close by to point out your shortcomings!

I was trying to be tactful, did I fail at my attempt?

 

[Guest]

Used dog's love to retreive and worked in backyard
Short tosses with fetch command given
Initial hesitation but worked through
Made fetch command a fun command
After a few weeks of this went back to table and worked through the problem without any difficulties

I think you guys missed the bold highlighted sentence. :?

I didn't... The same rule applies. Even though going back to the table worked, it still could be a result of the "fun" work. So you still have to be careful going forward.

Sounds like Linds had a really nice, thoughtful approach to solving the problem. I have done the same. You just have to be careful that it's not a fake out. And it very well may not be... I'm just saying, from my experience, be prepared that refusals may pop up down the line as difficulty is increased... Even on something as simple as force to pile.

-K

 

[Southern Rebel]

Nah... when you are right, you are right!

Just seems like everywhere I go, I can never make any mistakes without somebody finding out about it! :roll: (And I don't make many, you think just once, life would let it slide) hehehe

 

[Perch_44]

What you MAY have done is remove the pressure and you have a FF that will work when the dog isn't facing diffuclty and training is "fun". But when things get difficult or demanding, it may not hold up.

-K

i'm force fetching for the first time my pup. and am onto triple bumper walking fetch. i had some issues with him during the initial stages of FF, and had to make things a little fun for him, but was then able to back and repeat all of the steps with no issues.


what are some of the problems that i, or anyone else could run into? i'm not discrediting you in anyway, just curious is all. can you give me an example of where the dog who didn't have ultimate pressure put on him will run into an issue?

what would be some difficult or demanding things the dog may fail at?


just a rook looking for help.. :wink:

 

[Guest]

What you MAY have done is remove the pressure and you have a FF that will work when the dog isn't facing diffuclty and training is "fun". But when things get difficult or demanding, it may not hold up.

-K

i'm force fetching for the first time my pup. and am onto triple bumper walking fetch. i had some issues with him during the initial stages of FF, and had to make things a little fun for him, but was then able to back and repeat all of the steps with no issues.


what are some of the problems that i, or anyone else could run into? i'm not discrediting you in anyway, just curious is all. can you give me an example of where the dog who didn't have ultimate pressure put on him will run into an issue?

what would be some difficult or demanding things the dog may fail at?


just a rook looking for help.. :wink:

I'm not talking about "ultimate pressure". I'm talking about standard pressure FOR THAT DOG. It varies from dog to dog. It's a level of "challenge" that they need to "confront"... Trying to verbalize something that's really a "feeling" about the dog as you're working with them. They need to be able to feel a level of pinch that is enough that you can tell it's averse and they need to work through it with a stable, snappy response, confidence and good attitude.

Stuff you will see later mainly involves refusals as you progress in your yardwork. The one I mentioned above is force to pile. When they feel the pressure from force to pile, they may stop or they may go ahead and go on to the pile but refuse to retrieve a bumper. They may bolt...

Some dogs are very sensitive. Others are quitters. Some are fighters. Sensitive dogs will often have a sort of panic reaction where the training makes them nervous. They are the ones that may quiver through the lesson. You have to be careful to try to apply just the right amount of pressure, but then lots of praise and heeling/jogging with or without holding to keep things upbeat and let them know they're doing a good job. The happy approach mentioned in this thread works well and often long-term with these dogs as it's not a lack of effort on their part, it's just that they get nervous and intimidated by the pressure and need to realize when they're doing a good job.

The quitters are the ones that are really tough and will eat the pinch or have very little sensitivity. They do things like move their head away from you, lag at heeling, lay down, take a LONG time to have a snappy response. The happy approach mentioned in this thread will work on them temporarily, but often is only a band-aid. It will come up later in advanced training as I mentioned above IF you don't go back and teach them how to work through pressure. Force fetch is often a long road with these guys. I've taken 2-3 months with some dogs like this because I do a little bit at a time, take a break, come back and do more... The good news is that quitters tend to be stubborn dogs. And what I've found is that they are just as "stubborn" once they learn something. i.e., it really sticks and you'll rarely have problems with it. But it may be a long row to hoe to get there...

The fighters are the ones that are hellbent to take your arm off or claw you up. These are sensitive dogs also, for the most part, but different than the ones above. They tend to be domanant types, usually high drive. These types of dogs are the ones that quickly learn that when your hand is under the collar, they may get pinched and they start to writhe even as you're getting a hold of the collar. They may twist and about cut your fingers off... With these dogs, if they start doing stuff like this, I'll back up and teach them that they have to sit still regardless. I'll stop FF entirely and do obedience lessons on my "force fetch sidewalk" (I don't use a table, i use a sidewalk, freestyle) where I reach down for their collar and settle them down. So they learn not to writhe while we're in the motions of FF. Once I'm pinching, they can fight all they want, but it better be to get to the bumper.

These dogs don't do so well with happy stuff because they are already high desire dogs... And the issue tends to be control. So I will very rarerly, and never have, use the happy approach mentioned in this thread on this type of dog. I'll back up as I mentioned above and teach them to settle down and focus (which is really what FF is about, bottom line).

What you can get with the happy approach mentioned in this thread, IF YOU RELY ON IT FOR A "COMPLETE" FORCE FETCH, is a dog that will at some point become sloppy and give refusals. It ***IS*** a good approach for some dogs, not all. But it should not a bandaid for a bad response to pressure. Only you, as the handler/trainer, can work your dog to a good response to pressure by proper timing of corrections and praise, balance in training, and finding pressure levels appropriate for your dogs.

-K

 

[Perch_44]

thanks for the response kristie, that cleared things up for me a lot!!

 

[shootem]

Now you think making it fun or a game helped?? What are you going to do with force to pile water force? Force on back force on over, is you dog really going to learn to handle pressure?
One of the biggest mistakes I see first time trainers make in force fetching is not applying enough pressure or they give in to the dog.
Fun and games are great for a puppy or after a training session. If you have having problems work through it.

 

[shootem]

I think the best response to give you is to ask a pro who has force fetch 100 dogs or more. A lot of times on these forms you get advise from people that have done one or two dogs, BUT!!
Goes to some of the best IE Kristie and several others on this forum. Take their advice even if you may think it is not the way to approach the situation.