Kristie Wilder said:
What you MAY have done is remove the pressure and you have a FF that will work when the dog isn't facing diffuclty and training is "fun". But when things get difficult or demanding, it may not hold up.
i'm force fetching for the first time my pup. and am onto triple bumper walking fetch. i had some issues with him during the initial stages of FF, and had to make things a little fun for him, but was then able to back and repeat all of the steps with no issues.
what are some of the problems that i, or anyone else could run into? i'm not discrediting you in anyway, just curious is all. can you give me an example of where the dog who didn't have ultimate pressure put on him will run into an issue?
what would be some difficult or demanding things the dog may fail at?
just a rook looking for help.. :wink:
I'm not talking about "ultimate pressure". I'm talking about standard pressure FOR THAT DOG. It varies from dog to dog. It's a level of "challenge" that they need to "confront"... Trying to verbalize something that's really a "feeling" about the dog as you're working with them. They need to be able to feel a level of pinch that is enough that you can tell it's averse and they need to work through it with a stable, snappy response, confidence and good attitude.
Stuff you will see later mainly involves refusals as you progress in your yardwork. The one I mentioned above is force to pile. When they feel the pressure from force to pile, they may stop or they may go ahead and go on to the pile but refuse to retrieve a bumper. They may bolt...
Some dogs are very sensitive. Others are quitters. Some are fighters. Sensitive dogs will often have a sort of panic reaction where the training makes them nervous. They are the ones that may quiver through the lesson. You have to be careful to try to apply just the right amount of pressure, but then lots of praise and heeling/jogging with or without holding to keep things upbeat and let them know they're doing a good job. The happy approach mentioned in this thread works well and often long-term with these dogs as it's not a lack of effort on their part, it's just that they get nervous and intimidated by the pressure and need to realize when they're doing a good job.
The quitters are the ones that are really tough and will eat the pinch or have very little sensitivity. They do things like move their head away from you, lag at heeling, lay down, take a LONG time to have a snappy response. The happy approach mentioned in this thread will work on them temporarily, but often is only a band-aid. It will come up later in advanced training as I mentioned above IF you don't go back and teach them how to work through pressure. Force fetch is often a long road with these guys. I've taken 2-3 months with some dogs like this because I do a little bit at a time, take a break, come back and do more... The good news is that quitters tend to be stubborn dogs. And what I've found is that they are just as "stubborn" once they learn something. i.e., it really sticks and you'll rarely have problems with it. But it may be a long row to hoe to get there...
The fighters are the ones that are hellbent to take your arm off or claw you up. These are sensitive dogs also, for the most part, but different than the ones above. They tend to be domanant types, usually high drive. These types of dogs are the ones that quickly learn that when your hand is under the collar, they may get pinched and they start to writhe even as you're getting a hold of the collar. They may twist and about cut your fingers off... With these dogs, if they start doing stuff like this, I'll back up and teach them that they have to sit still regardless. I'll stop FF entirely and do obedience lessons on my "force fetch sidewalk" (I don't use a table, i use a sidewalk, freestyle) where I reach down for their collar and settle them down. So they learn not to writhe while we're in the motions of FF. Once I'm pinching, they can fight all they want, but it better be to get to the bumper.
These dogs don't do so well with happy stuff because they are already high desire dogs... And the issue tends to be control. So I will very rarerly, and never have, use the happy approach mentioned in this thread on this type of dog. I'll back up as I mentioned above and teach them to settle down and focus (which is really what FF is about, bottom line).
What you can get with the happy approach mentioned in this thread, IF YOU RELY ON IT FOR A "COMPLETE" FORCE FETCH, is a dog that will at some point become sloppy and give refusals. It ***IS*** a good approach for some dogs, not all. But it should not a bandaid for a bad response to pressure. Only you, as the handler/trainer, can work your dog to a good response to pressure by proper timing of corrections and praise, balance in training, and finding pressure levels appropriate for your dogs.