[LH]

I think I may be asking the same questions again and again, I blame it on old age (37). This could be such a question, not sure:

What is a functional anatomy for a retriever? Why?

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

like for example, it the head too blocky and square to be able to pick up a duck? Is the coat and under coat proper for a water dog? stuff like that.

 

[LH]

like for example, it the head too blocky and square to be able to pick up a duck? Is the coat and under coat proper for a water dog? stuff like that.

well no, more the pure skeleton and construction.

 

[Guest]

Degree of angulation in the front and in the rear should be similar to maximize movement (i.e., trotting or running) with minimal effort.

 

[Latisha]

This was asked about two years ago. The topic didn't get much reaction then either.
http://retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17732

I am still pretty comfortable with the list I made. I think the only thing I would add to it is a strong, but flexible, back. I like Aussie's comment about dogs that glide.

One thing I have learned about conformation in the past 2 years, is that it is more than just length of bones, angulation, and an effortless gait. It is also about strength and weakness. For instance, a dog may have its bones in all the right places, but if the tendons and ligaments are weak, or the muscles not in condition, the animal is not going to use its whole body efficiently. The whole body should be strong with no inherent weakness.

Latisha

 

[LH]

This was asked about two years ago. The topic didn't get much reaction then either.
http://retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17732

I am still pretty comfortable with the list I made. I think the only thing I would add to it is a strong, but flexible, back. I like Aussie's comment about dogs that glide.

One thing I have learned about conformation in the past 2 years, is that it is more than just length of bones, angulation, and an effortless gait. It is also about strength and weakness. For instance, a dog may have its bones in all the right places, but if the tendons and ligaments are weak, or the muscles not in condition, the animal is not going to use its whole body efficiently. The whole body should be strong with no inherent weakness.

Latisha

Thanks!!!!!!

 

[LH]

Degree of angulation in the front and in the rear should be similar to maximize movement (i.e., trotting or running) with minimal effort.

Thanks!!!!!

 

[LH]

One thing I am wondering about is the size and depth of the chest. Is the stamina and ability to work for a long time enhanced by a large chest? Does the chest need to be big for a dog to have large lungs?

 

[LH]

Have to comment on this line in the posted link:

"The original standards describe the ideal hunting-retriever of that time, which I would wager was more like the meat dogs of today."


I don't know what the US bred FT lab look like but here in Europe the FT Labs and FT Goldens are more similar to the original historical type:

Check out some historical Labs in this blog, furthest down:

http://kennelmeadowlark.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html

Historical Goldens:

http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/history page.html

http://www.slav-trophy.ru/publik_foss3.htm

 

[ErinsEdge]

It looks to be like your dogs of old look like our dogs of old and the way many of our field dogs look, but certainly US bench dogs have changed dramatically to what they interpret as "form follows function" which invariably initiates great debate in that we say form follows actual performance. The pictures say it all, and wonderful ones I might add.

 

[LH]

Last Dual CH Lab in the UK born 1946, Knaith Banjo:

http://www.retrieversport.hu/images/dual/knaithb.jpg

 

[Julie R.]

Here ya go...this is an interesting little study in fuctional anatomy of several different breeds (Labs, golden, flatcoat, CBR & poodle), photos taken from a junior hunt test by professional photographer Dennis Glennon. The two 'extreme' show Labs (one is light yellow, the other black) were painful to watch, which you can tell from the photos. All of the dogs except these two ran out/back and are photographed on the run, only these 2 of 30 some went out and back at a walk/slow jog. They physically can't go much faster--the poodle was faster than them. The black one, who is a bench CH I believe, mustered a slow jog but its belly is practically touching the ground. And their muzzles are so short they had trouble picking up the ducks.

http://dennisglennon.photosite.com/RRRCSpringHuntTestJuniorSaturday/

 

[ChrisRobt]

Here ya go...this is an interesting little study in fuctional anatomy of several different breeds (Labs, golden, flatcoat, CBR & poodle), photos taken from a junior hunt test by professional photographer Dennis Glennon. The two 'extreme' show Labs (one is light yellow, the other black) were painful to watch, which you can tell from the photos. All of the dogs except these two ran out/back and are photographed on the run, only these 2 of 30 some went out and back at a walk/slow jog. They physically can't go much faster--the poodle was faster than them. The black one, who is a bench CH I believe, mustered a slow jog but its belly is practically touching the ground. And their muzzles are so short they had trouble picking up the ducks.

[/url]

Julie, do you know what breed "Rocker" is???

 

[Guest]

Good points, Latisha. Balance happens to be on my mind because I acquired a dog who is so straight in the front vs a lot of rear angulation. I am no conformation expert, but even to my untrained eye her movement is obviously hindered by her structure.

Linda, here's a book that may be of interest to you:

Study of the Golden Retriever by Marcia Schlehr

Known as the "Blue Book" by those in the breed. Essentially, an illustrated Standard of the Golden Retriever. Intent is to explain and clarify the standard and to relate its requirements to the Golden's original intended function as a working retriever of game birds. Emphasis is on the importance of maintaining the qualities that have made the Golden such a versatile, useful, practical dog. Black & white line drawing. Author Marcia Schlehr is a breeder, judge, artist, and writer.

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=B1172&AffiliateID=45296&Method=3

 

[ChrisRobt]

Good points, Latisha. Balance happens to be on my mind because I acquired a dog who is so straight in the front vs a lot of rear angulation. I am no conformation expert, but even to my untrained eye her movement is obviously hindered by her structure.

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=B1172&AffiliateID=45296&Method=3

Alot of the Golden obedience dogs have that straight front; it gives them a "prancing" gait in the ring( similiar to the small terriers) which many serious obedience competitors seem to prefer.

 

[Guest]

Alot of the Golden obedience dogs have that straight front

I agree. And many of the top agility Goldens are coming from those "obedience lines." What's wrong with this picture? :?

BTW, the dog I was talking about is from field lines. In general, we've done a decent job in maintaining our fronts. Whether is has been a conscious effort or not is another discussion.

Perhaps it is because form follows function? I would hope so.

Melanie

ps By "we" I mean field Golden breeders as a whole.

 

[luvalab]

Alot of the Golden obedience dogs have that straight front; it gives them a "prancing" gait in the ring( similiar to the small terriers) which many serious obedience competitors seem to prefer.

Would this be b/c the dog can more easily look up into the handler's face while heeling? The OB people often like that eye-contact attention. This would be sort of a strange case of form following a very specific "function," would it not?

Christine, "Rocker" looks to be a Chessie.

 

[ChrisRobt]

Alot of the Golden obedience dogs have that straight front; it gives them a "prancing" gait in the ring( similiar to the small terriers) which many serious obedience competitors seem to prefer.

Would this be b/c the dog can more easily look up into the handler's face while heeling? The OB people often like that eye-contact attention. This would be sort of a strange case of form following a very specific "function," would it not?

Christine, "Rocker" looks to be a Chessie.

There are alot of obedience dogs which watch the handler's face and don't have the straight front; I'd guess the straight front and prancing gait were present in some top obedience Golden and other competitors liked the look (I sure don't).

Julie and I have had a nice discussion of "hound-marked" Chessies; I didn't know they existed and had never seen such markings in the breed.

 

[Guest]

There are alot of obedience dogs which watch the handler's face and don't have the straight front

Yep, training for "attention" while heeling does not have anything to do with structure or lack thereof. And a straight front does nothing to encourage a dog to watch his handler. :wink:

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

Our trainer made a comment regarding the structure of a couple of our labs who are deep chested. When he compared roading them to leaner labs, he found that while the leaner dogs were much more capable "sprinters", the dogs with deeper chests did much better at roading...longer distances at a slower (but decent) pace.