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We have a 2 1/2 year old yellow female. She is out of TNT "Nitro" so she has a good back ground. She got her Master Hunter title and HRCH at 26 months old and this dog handles like a Mercedes. Problem: 9 out of 10 set ups that we do, she will miss the go bird. She will either establish a hunt and hunt for it, or will leave the area and have to be handled to it. She will 99% of the time pick up the other two clean. She is not crazy on the line. She is very focused. The last hunt test that we ran had an inline then a live flyer off to the side. THe flyer was the go bird. She missed it had to be handled to it, then picked up the inline clean. Any ideas how to help her?
 

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You have a habit going...

Cow Chip drill on the go bird and I would box her in. She tries to leave the fall area I would blow my whistle and cast back into the fall with a "force"

Angie
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The problem that I see with that is that once you hit the whistle she knows you are in control and she's not going to just go back to the area and start hunting again. Also, with this drill is she not being set up to fail, since she already wants to leave the hunt area if she can't find it, and with the dirt clod, or cow chip, she is not going to find anything so she will leave anyway.??????
 

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In your training setups, is your go bird a usually a relatively easy mark? Does she leave the line a bit nervous on the go bird and become more comfortable with each bird? Is the go bird she fails always the shortest of the marks? Have you tried to select and see what happens?

Kris
Blacktail Labradors
 

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Angie B said:
You have a habit going...

Cow Chip drill on the go bird and I would box her in. She tries to leave the fall area I would blow my whistle and cast back into the fall with a "force"

Angie
This is not going to produce a problem. It will produce a dog with a conscience. This is not a puppy we're talking about. We have a 26 month old MH that lacks discipline about remaining with a hunt, and you need to get that under control very soon.

This should be done like a religion with this dog. What you're after is the same as any other training; habit formation. Do not allow that dog to quit a mark - any mark. At this stage that means to put something in your corrections for it. Don't nag. Settle it, and soon. If you intend to continue to develop and advance this dog, it's time to adjust your training to a higher level, and that means the way you apply it.

Evan
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
We have tried all different set ups. easy, short ect. We were doing an ABC drill last week with white jackets, and white bumbers, and she still missed the 1st bird. She will usually pin walking singles. we did run a triple yesterday in the water and we pulled her off the go bird and picked it up last and she got it. It was the most difficult bird, not sure if that is the answer. She does seem to build confidence with each bird, but doesnt leave the line slugish on any mark, she is high energy.

If we do the Cow chip drill and handle her back to the area, if she won't establish a hunt on her own would you have the bird boy help her out to try to get her to hunt?
 

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it wont take her long to figure out what you want, just keep casting her back to the area.

if youre setting out knowing youre likely to burn for this, make sure that the go bird and the bird shes going to switch to are far apart. that way you can wait and make sure shes really committed to leaving before you burn and still not be burning her by the other gun.

also, if you burn real tight to the fall you can get your dog uptight and uncertain and they may pop instead of finishing what may just be a loose hunt. make sure shes leaving before you correct her.
 

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Stupid is as stupid does, so I am going to ask a probable stupid question.

Are you mechanics the same for each bird, as in pause delay before sending, especially for the first bird to be retrieved?
 

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Aussie said:
Stupid is as stupid does, so I am going to ask a probable stupid question.

Are you mechanics the same for each bird, as in pause delay before sending, especially for the first bird to be retrieved?
Where you going with this Julie???

Angie
 

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Dirt Clod Drill (aka Cow Chip Drill, etc.)

This valuable little drill has a number of applications depending on the need. I’ll focus on your dog in this explanation, and that is de-switching. A dog prone to switching lacks discipline about diligently hunting a fall to the extent that they will readily leave a hunt to go and hunt another fall.

Keeping in mind the age and developmental level of this dog, we’ll approach the cure on a more advanced level. That will include literally setting him up to commit the foul you have cited as habitual, and then correct it sternly for lasting effects. Bear in mind, this is something you will likely need to do a number of times, reading your dog as you go for the development of a conscience.

D.L. noted that when a dog has been given enough education about his job that he must learn a sense of obligation about doing it to be reliable. I agree with that, and this drill is designed to do that.

The first step will be to configure a set of double marks with ample suction away from the go bird. Below is a diagram of a hip pocket double with proportionate distances to give you an idea of how to set them up. Converging marks provide this type of suction, as well. I would say to set yours up so that there is no more than 50 yards between the falls.



The dynamics of the drill, as they were originally run, included having your bird boy either throw a large dirt clod or a cow chip. The object was roughly the size of a bird, and we used enough distance that they couldn’t tell the difference. But, when they got to the fall area, there was no bird. That is because we wanted them to quit the hunt, if they had that proclivity, so we could correct them for it. They would sometimes leave it instantly, finding no mark in the area.

Instruct your bird boy to be ready to slip a bird out into the fall area on your cue. This would happen when the dog left the AOF to go for another mark. You’ll make your correction, and direct your dog back into the fall area to resume the hunt. Try not to get side tracked here about “What do you do if he doesn’t hunt”. We’ll get to that.

The fall area of the go bird should be open ground. There should not be cover in the fall area adequate to hide even a pigeon. When your dog returns to the fall area, the bird will be visible, and retrieving it should be virtually automatic.

Don’t re-run it. Put him up and go run something non-mark related. Come back tomorrow and run another Dirt Clod Drill in another spot, and change the configuration slightly to have a different look for the dog.

As for when to make the correction, let me say this. First, I no longer use dirt clods or cow chips. I use the same drill dynamics, but we throw birds (ducks), and attach decoy anchor lines to both of them. The distance to the shortest fall (the go bird) is about 75-80 yards, so the bird boy has plenty of time to reel in the bird after the dog is sent. The bird boys retrieve both marks, so the dog isn’t ever rewarded by a switch.

That allows a more effective application of the drill because I allow the dog to complete the switch and establish a hunt in the long fall area. Just as he commits to the hunt, “Toot” – nick – “Toot”, and then “Toot, toot” to direct the dog to come back into the go bird fall area, where the bird boy will have already replaced the fall with a duck that has no line attached to it. This rewards the dog for hunting the fall area of the go bird, in direct opposition to having been corrected in the long fall.

I do not send them for the long mark, where they’ve just received a correction.

In the rare case of a dog hunting so diligently for the go bird that he will not leave it to switch, I instruct my bird boy to be ready to sneak out a bird on my cue, and to do so in a manner that the dog will not see him do it. That is a reward for a diligent hunt. But that rarely occurs.

Questions?

Evan
 

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Good, and logical question, Ken. But it's never happened. Bear in mind, we do this drill to correct a chronic switching habit. These dogs rarely hunt the fall area diligently enough to notice something as subtle as a scent trail.

Further, the fall is laying out there on open ground when they return to it, so it doesn't happen then either. It's reasonable to wonder, but the type of dog we're working with isn't usually working the fall that well in the first place.

NOTE: Something I didn't mention above is that we drag scent the fall area of the go bird to establish an additional reason for the dog to hunt it.

Evan
 

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The description of the dog in the first post makes me wonder if the dog is "blinking" the go bird. Hard to figure they would blink a flyer, but it may just be a habit. I imagine that the same drill Evan described would help, I just wonder if maybe it is perceived pressure from running too many multiple set ups.
I had a friend a long time ago that had a dog that would start for the go bird and about 30 yards out she would spin a tight circle and keep going. VERY WEIRD but it was presure related, too many multiple marks and too much pressure from the handler. Tons of easy singles at a pro's place helped solve the problem.

Just a thought???
 

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Evan: i have never seen a written explanation of the dirt clod drill before. I think you should be congratulated for such a fine effort. However, I feel there should be a warning applied, because I have never know an inexperienced trainer who could successfully run this drill on his dog without serious consiquences. You have to know all of the possible side effects and how to counter act them when they occur. And, in many cases it takes the dog a long time to recover and get back to normal. My suggestion, work with a knowledgable pro who has experience with this dirll.
GG
 

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Angie B said:
Aussie said:
Stupid is as stupid does, so I am going to ask a probable stupid question.

Are you mechanics the same for each bird, as in pause delay before sending, especially for the first bird to be retrieved?
Where you going with this Julie???

Angie

I think she's wondering if the handler isn't too quick to send on the gobird. I've seen it where if the send on the first bird is too quick, the dog hasn't had time to collect themselves and focus on that bird. They end up missing it a lot of times.

Bente
 

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Bente said:
Angie B said:
Aussie said:
Stupid is as stupid does, so I am going to ask a probable stupid question.

Are you mechanics the same for each bird, as in pause delay before sending, especially for the first bird to be retrieved?
Where you going with this Julie???

Angie

I think she's wondering if the handler isn't too quick to send on the gobird. I've seen it where if the send on the first bird is too quick, the dog hasn't had time to collect themselves and focus on that bird. They end up missing it a lot of times.

Bente
Thanks Bente. Australians, at least me, talk/type funny? :lol:

Angie, what do you mean "where are you going with this"?
 

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Would you do this only with dogs that are prone to leaving the area of the fall? Ive only seen dirt clod drills done once with a dog. Never hear of it really being talked about much but that was a awsome example.
 

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Bente said:
Angie B said:
Aussie said:
Stupid is as stupid does, so I am going to ask a probable stupid question.

Are you mechanics the same for each bird, as in pause delay before sending, especially for the first bird to be retrieved?
Where you going with this Julie???

Angie

I think she's wondering if the handler isn't too quick to send on the gobird. I've seen it where if the send on the first bird is too quick, the dog hasn't had time to collect themselves and focus on that bird. They end up missing it a lot of times.

Bente
Got it!!! I guess I've never seen a chronic problem with overrunning the go bird due to a quick send...

Cow chip would still be my first choice.

Angie
 

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Waterdogs said:
Would you do this only with dogs that are prone to leaving the area of the fall? Ive only seen dirt clod drills done once with a dog. Never hear of it really being talked about much but that was a awsome example.
It's primarily for de-switching. There are specialized adaptations for dogs that chronically hunt loose, as well. But the dog in question has a rather odd problem - that of leaving go birds. I think this is an ideal treatment for him.

Evan
 
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