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Nichole 90% of show labs are a hot mess and this is due to folks saying the same tag line "breeding to the standard". Have you ever watched a WC? Hot mess
 

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Your terminology needs some work. Brown lab.
Your terminology needs some work. Brown lab, English lab build. By English Lab build I'm guessing you have confused them with SHOW Labs. English WORKING dogs look just like their American counterpart.


A friend of mine is breeding his black male English lab with a brown American lab. I can't find anything on the web about how this dog will look when it gets big, and no one I know has any answers for me either. I don't want to have an odd looking lab. Any answers? I'm interested in how the build of a half English half American lab will turn out.
 

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Your terminology needs some work. Brown lab.
Your terminology needs some work. Brown lab, English lab build. By English Lab build I'm guessing you have confused them with SHOW Labs. English WORKING dogs look just like their American counterpart.
Or Canoe labs....
 

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The English called chocolates "liver" last I knew. Brown is a fine term by me. Just a bit slang. Sounds better than liver actually.... but then I've never really acquired a taste for liver...
 

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The English called chocolates "liver" last I knew. Brown is a fine term by me. Sounds better than liver actually.... but then I've never really acquired a taste for liver.
The UK Kennel Club Lab Breed Standard says "Wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest permissible." In common parlance Labs are said to be chocolate (though there are very few chocco working dogs) and Springers are referred to as liver. BTW the Management makes a magnificent liver and onions with a madeira sauce / gravy. Next time you're up this neck of the woods come and give it a try.

English WORKING dogs look just like their American counterpart.
The blackfeller below is actually Welsh but he certainly is a worker. Typical (if nice) example of FT stock in UK and Ireland. The yellow boy is also by a FTCh. and did a bit in Trials himself. Contrast and compare to the third pic, an award winning show dog from Crufts last year. Porker.








You can't help but think if you gave that show dog a five month picking up season in these Welsh hills, starting slowly and changing that plob into muscle, by Feb 1 you'd have decent looking, good strong dog; Lord knows what his working potential is though. I sometimes think our labs could do with a bit more bone, but the show bench doesn't seem the place to find it, too much physical and mental baggage. I'd advise the OP tae gang varra warrily.

Eug
 

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Look.jpg Stewart free bait .jpg Stewart is my 6 generation of breeding, fourth of blending show and field lines. He is a working machine and not bad to look at. I could not get him fat if I tried! Blending field and show works if the breeder knows structure and ability AND temperament. The pay off is after several generations though. The first out cross will likely lack consistency....so if you are getting an outcross puppy expect a variable within the litter
 

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View attachment 16698 View attachment 16699 Stewart is my 6 generation of breeding, fourth of blending show and field lines. He is a working machine and not bad to look at. I could not get him fat if I tried! Blending field and show works if the breeder knows structure and ability AND temperament. The pay off is after several generations though. The first out cross will likely lack consistency....so if you are getting an outcross puppy expect a variable within the litter
What is your definition of "field lines"? Are we talking about HT titled show dogs or real field trial dogs? I don't see the point in blending the two. (Not to sound rude about your dog) but it seems these blends can not excell in either the field or the show ring. The seem to fall into the middle. I have seen them advertised as neither high strung or to much show etc. that of course is just mouth run. Seen hyper hot mess show labs and mellow field trial dogs.

And BTW, I qualified my dog for Crufts. Lol
 

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My definition of field dogs is real FT dogs. This dog is about 90 % show at this point, with
FC AFC The Marathon Man
and
AFC Hiwood Shadow
in the back on the dam side (granted they are 5 generations back) The sire of this dog is a CH/MH . My feeling is blending gets you a better looking dog ,with better coat and yes, tail and yes structure with a higher desire and trainability than MOST show only bred dogs.
I have a Grady son whom I absolutely adore, he is smart , trainable and a pretty decent marker but he is not the prettiest dog , he is high in the rear and as a really long tail and has hound dog ears, and a long pointy nose :). When I breed him to a CH/MH/QAA x SH bitch I have (who made the cut in her large class at the Potomac last year), I hope that in the coming generations, I can start to improve on some of the structural flaws and keep a good portion of the drive. The bitch is pretty darn driven too! To EACH their own!!! I like a fairly substantial , ATHLETIC , more blocky headed (with proper length of muzzle) dog, and that is what my customers like.
I recently sent a finished FC bred bitch to my guide friend in South Jersey. She is doing great on geese , and gets REALLY cold on water. She does not have a great coat and not an once of extra meat on her bones ...she is not going to work out for him and he wants one of my upcoming blended pups
 

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I can understand the thought process about it all. Middle of the road not too much of this, not too much of that concept. It's easy to sell because it makes sense to most people.

I assume you aren't expecting to make show CH or field trial titles with the middle of the road dogs?
 

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Paul "Happy" Gilmore;1176196 I assume you aren't expecting to make show CH or field trial titles with the middle of the road dogs?[/QUOTE said:
Hmm the show probably No, you can't train looks ;). As for FT who knows, If the dogs got skill, goes out and does it. The performance world, has a reputation for not caring, if the dog looks like a grey-hound or a bus, as long as they can do. Enough time, enough training, enough campaigning, a bit of luck on a certain day and who knows. This is the great thing about performance events, it's in the doing. Heck even those Chessies and Goldens pull it out of the woodwork sometimes j/k ;)
 

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I have seen some very handsome FT dogs bred by Brad Belmore of Mach Three Kennels out of two of his FC's --Edge and Razor. They consistently turned out extremely good looking high performance pups. Unfortunately Razor has passed on and Brad is no longer breeding Edge, even though she is still running in the games. An example is Ollie below about 8 months. (Click on the thumbnail below to enlarge.)


Ollie 180sm.jpg
 

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I just don't see the need for it. If you really want good looks there are plenty of great looking field trial dogs to chose from not to mention, there are many breedings of which to look at to see results. I just don't see the need to put NFC material into a CH. with some hope it will be making better looking dogs. The argument has been made both ways. FT bred for performance so has ruined the "type" and show has bred for "type" and ruined performance. So, along comes this thought to mix the two messes to hope they meet in the middle. Your gravy is too thin, mine is too lumpy. Mix it up and hope that the runny gravy evens out the lumps. Awfully hard to fix gravy when it didn't turn out right in the first place.
 

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I have no plans to show in AKC show ring. I was refering to the way hound events are held. As far as the standard, yes I agree mine where not bred to the AKC Lab Standard (thank God). Saying that they are not bred to the standard makes them all one breed. So a field lab and a field beagle are the same breed? One hunts in packs for fur, the other is a honed bird machine. How about a Field bred Lab and and a working german shepard, I know which one I would not want to meet in a dark alley.Your out late season goose hunting in MI do you think a field bred English pointer, or a field bred lab would be the better choice. Standards may have there place, but that lab standard needs emergency cpr
Jeff, I compared retriever to retriever not apples to oranges. And if you thank God that your dogs weren't bred with the breed standard in mind, you shouldn't have any issues if someone says they're completely incorrect for the breed.

Nichole 90% of show labs are a hot mess and this is due to folks saying the same tag line "breeding to the standard". Have you ever watched a WC? Hot mess
Pauhl, What 90% of show labs do you have personal experience with? I've been to a number of WCs. Seen some nice runs out of show bred dogs and seen some sad.... same with field bred dogs that came.

I think we'll agree that nobody who's actually competitive in either venue (trials or show) would want to waste a breeding in such a way. On the other hand, 99% of these breedings aren't truly show bred (english) to field bred (american) as much as two "pet bred" labradors bred together.... one of which might have a blockier head so they call it english and the other is fine boned so they call it american.

As for the show bred lab bash any thread that mentions them quickly becomes... boring. And if you waste all your super clever zingers now, whatever will you talk about when westminster rolls around next month? ;)
 

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I can understand the thought process about it all. Middle of the road not too much of this, not too much of that concept. It's easy to sell because it makes sense to most people.

I assume you aren't expecting to make show CH or field trial titles with the middle of the road dogs?
My Plan is to make the next DUAL CH Labrador. I am 52 yrs old, I figure I have 30 yrs to try and get it done... :p
I absolutely do hope to create a dog that gets at least QAA/ CH
 

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Jeff, I compared retriever to retriever not apples to oranges. And if you thank God that your dogs weren't bred with the breed standard in mind, you shouldn't have any issues if someone says they're completely incorrect for the breed.

Nicole
I've known you long enough to know we are never going to agree on these labs.Its not personal.How many times since 1980 has the Labrador Club Of America revised the standard?When they revise the standard, do they ever happen to look at what our FT dogs are required to do?Have you happened to see the January edition of the Retriever News? These Retrievers that compete at the National Open Championship are what should be representative of their respective breeds IMHO .

Pauhl, What 90% of show labs do you have personal experience with? I've been to a number of WCs. Seen some nice runs out of show bred dogs and seen some sad.... same with field bred dogs that came.

I think we'll agree that nobody who's actually competitive in either venue (trials or show) would want to waste a breeding in such a way. On the other hand, 99% of these breedings aren't truly show bred (english) to field bred (american) as much as two "pet bred" labradors bred together.... one of which might have a blockier head so they call it english and the other is fine boned so they call it american.

As for the show bred lab bash any thread that mentions them quickly becomes... boring. And if you waste all your super clever zingers now, whatever will you talk about when westminster rolls around next month? ;)
I could not have told you when Westminster is held.
 

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My Plan is to make the next DUAL CH Labrador. I am 52 yrs old, I figure I have 30 yrs to try and get it done... :p
I absolutely do hope to create a dog that gets at least QAA/ CH
You go girl!!! :D

Paul, Come on.... you are at hunt tests so you've seen some very nice blends out there working. Elaine Brock's QAA yellow is a blend. Sonya's sister w/ Fred is a blend (they do play a little in the FT game too, and have done better than most!). Bob Morris has had some nice blends-- one QAA as I recall. Winroc has a QAA. Will they win in the show ring? No, but who ever said a lab is first and foremost, a show dog? There is probably a reason or 2 why our breed wins so few BIS's. Chessies probably don't either...

Your breed (imo) has been kept more pure for the working aspects overall than so many other retriever breeds, however. Anne
 
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