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I posted this on another forum, but I post it here also because I think sometimes newbies get focuses on methods and drills and don't consider in every training session the attitude of their dog or their training relationship to the dog.

I don't understand why some trainers have dry passionless relationship with their dog and seem to have a master-slave mentality instead of a coach-athlete mentality.

Here is an example with force to pile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6qtKMyM26g
I think this trainer makes fundamental mistakes:
repeating commands may become background noise:
"sit,sit,sit,sit!" "come here, come here,heel" "here, here, comeon"
the first three sits don't count in the dogs mind...don't repeat commands...

"she does a little shopping at the pile"
why not clean that up first and keep the learning simple and focused rather than tolerating this?

"hold, hold", "hold,"hold","drop","no"
why not clean this up with thorough force-fetching before advancing to a new concept.

he does not read his dog and recognize the dog's attitude deteriorates... note the dogs attitude at the start versus the end of the session, especially on the return because she fears what is going on

the dog loops away from the handler on the first return,loops around the handler on the second return showing she is afraid of the handler in this master-slave relationship

From my perspective, this master-slave relationship is sad and he treats the dog like a robot rather than an intelligent animal.

Now contrast that video with this force-to-pile session :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_i2NYvk ... D97E7CE793

The handler still shows at least 1 mistake (dog has not been thoroughly force fetched),but the retriever has a much better attitude...in the long run I think this is key.

Which dog and trainer seems more likely to look forward to training the next day?

Which relationship (master-slave or coach athlete) will ultimately be better at handler communication on check down birds, fine lining, etc?

I view human-dog relationships more of a continuum from master-slave to coach-athlete, and most of the best trainers that I know are more towards the coach-athlete type of relationship.


 

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Me and my dogs have a warden/prisoner relationship. They are serving a life sentence with hard labor :D

Lonnie Spann
 

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Or, if it's a British dog,



more sergeant major-squaddie.

Or, if they're wearing a "balaclava"



SAS-commando...

MG
 

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Neither fits. Yes you want a positive attitude and a relaxed dog. They perform better and I feel better about it and we both have more fun. Simple as that, but your analogies are horrible. Dogs are dogs, people are people. I'm not a pet parent, nor a pet coach. I own the animal.

And as its owner, I chose that it should have its testicles removed, eat when and what I tell give it, and sleep on the bed.
 

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I dont think the first Vid is drill sargent like at all!! In Fact,, Quite opposite. More of a Nanny,, and a Nagger!

One command ,,One respose,, is the standard isnt it?

I would TRY not to repete commands,, and the derned dog BETTER comply!

I mean really,, isnt FORCE to pile ,,, SIT to pile,,,all about enforcement of commands and standards??

You have alread taught the dog the commands in Obedience.. He knows them.. He has been collar conditioned to those commands right?
He has been FORCED FETCHED right?? He understands FORCE!!

NOW,, we go to the application of the force aspect of training.. The PRESSURE part..

The trainer in the first Vid, IMHO,, needs to be MORE sargent like,, in a CALM ,,quiet,, way,, and strictly enforce the commands given.

In Another thread,, a question asked about behaviors experienced when sending from your side...

I think the first VID shows why its a good idea to send from front finish, after the initial throw to mark the back pile.
The dog then just focuses on being cast to the back pile,, occationally working through FORCE to that pile, with no flaring on the way, and a straight return to a position directly in front of you , where the dogs focus REMAINS on YOU. You dont wait for him to look at you to be cast,, if he is lookin all around,, cast anyway!! He will soon learn to look at you. He learns to come straight back to you, sit square at your feet. He already knows all thosse commands,, been collar conditioned to them,, NOW we USE them in an application of FORCE and FOCUS...
 

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Isnt the objective of Force to pile, to really drum that back pile into their heads?

Dont you believe we are not ASKING them to go,, were FORCING them to go.

After all the obedience we taught,, how we introduced FORCE with the fetch command,, dont you believe at this stage, we are not asking them to Heel, Sit,,here,, but commanding them to action?
Do you not believe we are not setting the standard?

What standard do you believe the original vid shows? I believe NONE!
He is more focused on the instructional video,, instead of total focus on the dog..

I agree about "Where" also.
 

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I wonder if his standards would be different if he wasnt considering a publicly viewed Video?

People who posts Vids are very brave, because they place themselves between a rock and a hard spot either way..
 

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There is a great body of work available from Pat Nolan and his record speaks for itself. No clue who the other dude is.
 

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I'm the master, but I would hardly call my dogs slaves, I would hope slaves would behave better ;). Coach and Athlete; seems too touch feel-y, an athlete chooses a sport, and chooses to put forth work. To call a dog-human relationship coach and athlete is, turning a dog into a human, with human motivations, and concerns, but they are Dogs not Humans. They were bred for a purpose, which is to serve. My dogs live to please me; and I doubt they would choose to run stupid set-ups with dead birds, and dumb rules that don't make much since, If left to their own devices. Heck they probably wouldn't do anything but lay on the couch, chew on the remote, and eat bon-bons. If I wasn't around to make life more interesting. The dog-human relationship is just that Dog and Human; doesn't need any fancy metaphors; as it's pretty unique in itself.
 

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Not fair to compare whoever that fellow was to Pat N. I thought he did a reasonable job. It would have been better if he had someone else talking like Nolan, so he could concentrate on his dog. He did say sit alot but...is anyone perfect!

I thought the dogs were at different stages or did different approaches of the FTP IMO. I couldn't really hear the person's voice from Nolan's speaking. One time, I heard her praise the dog.

I would opt for more praise to both dogs, less times to the pile (which Nolan's dogs seemed to do) and do marks after. I try not to repeat commands but...:)That is just me.

As for my dogs I like to think I have some element of control!:) but I am not a task master nor a Nag!! harping commands out! Nor a perfect trainer. They are my pets first. Their reward; their work! whatever that is. It could be agility, dock diving, HRC or FT. They love it!:) They do get treats!! I happen to have one looking at me right now. It is dinner time!
 

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Our dogs are the masters and we are the slaves who make food, pick up their poop in the park, throw balls outside and stuffed animals inside for as long as we can stand it and drive the truck to the places where on really good days they get birds. We aren't the best help in the world, since we sometimes are not quite as johnny on the spot with all of the above as they would like and take up too much space on the bed and couch, but we are almost part of the family now and it would be probably too difficult to get new slaves and train them and they may even be worse.
 

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I think the majority our dogs have the best slaves in the world. Doublehaul hit the nail right on the head! I have 3 dogs right now staring at me..."feed me Seymour!"
 

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I posted this on another forum, but I post it here also because I think sometimes newbies get focuses on methods and drills and don't consider in every training session the attitude of their dog or their training relationship to the dog.

I don't understand why some trainers have dry passionless relationship with their dog and seem to have a master-slave mentality instead of a coach-athlete mentality.

Here is an example with force to pile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6qtKMyM26g
I think this trainer makes fundamental mistakes:
repeating commands may become background noise:
"sit,sit,sit,sit!" "come here, come here,heel" "here, here, comeon"
the first three sits don't count in the dogs mind...don't repeat commands...

"she does a little shopping at the pile"
why not clean that up first and keep the learning simple and focused rather than tolerating this?

"hold, hold", "hold,"hold","drop","no"
why not clean this up with thorough force-fetching before advancing to a new concept.

he does not read his dog and recognize the dog's attitude deteriorates... note the dogs attitude at the start versus the end of the session, especially on the return because she fears what is going on

the dog loops away from the handler on the first return,loops around the handler on the second return showing she is afraid of the handler in this master-slave relationship

From my perspective, this master-slave relationship is sad and he treats the dog like a robot rather than an intelligent animal.

Now contrast that video with this force-to-pile session :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_i2NYvk ... D97E7CE793

The handler still shows at least 1 mistake (dog has not been thoroughly force fetched),but the retriever has a much better attitude...in the long run I think this is key.

Which dog and trainer seems more likely to look forward to training the next day?

Which relationship (master-slave or coach athlete) will ultimately be better at handler communication on check down birds, fine lining, etc?

I view human-dog relationships more of a continuum from master-slave to coach-athlete, and most of the best trainers that I know are more towards the coach-athlete type of relationship.


You have IMO discussed a type 2 trainer and in the long run a type 3 trainer and beyond.....Is there a type four trainer? The dog is there for you....good or bad...Is it the trainer that is good or bad? What does the trainer need to do to understand there objectives and that of the dog? They are not alone nor should be in reaching the goals together. I need to understand and in return show what I want. If I can't do that, then I failed as a trainer and in return failed to the dog that I am teaching.....:) This is the new age and we don't want to fall on the old ways.....
 

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I posted this on another forum, but I post it here also because I think sometimes newbies get focuses on methods and drills and don't consider in every training session the attitude of their dog or their training relationship to the dog.

I don't understand why some trainers have dry passionless relationship with their dog and seem to have a master-slave mentality instead of a coach-athlete mentality.

Here is an example with force to pile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6qtKMyM26g
I think this trainer makes fundamental mistakes:
repeating commands may become background noise:
"sit,sit,sit,sit!" "come here, come here,heel" "here, here, comeon"
the first three sits don't count in the dogs mind...don't repeat commands...
I appreciate your observation about overall relationships between dog and handler. Many dogs quickly tire of dry sessions with little or no praise, or when praise itself is dry and passionless. I also appreciate that you're offering looks at different approaches in training for contrast, and not as a contest between the two.
Now contrast that video with this force-to-pile session :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_i2NYvk ... D97E7CE793

The handler still shows at least 1 mistake (dog has not been thoroughly force fetched),but the retriever has a much better attitude...in the long run I think this is key.

Which dog and trainer seems more likely to look forward to training the next day?

Which relationship (master-slave or coach athlete) will ultimately be better at handler communication on check down birds, fine lining, etc?

I view human-dog relationships more of a continuum from master-slave to coach-athlete, and most of the best trainers that I know are more towards the coach-athlete type of relationship.
I think what you're looking for is an end product that is a high functioning team, not just an animal that 'darned well does what he's told'. The coach/athlete view is most likely to get you there. Your attitude is what drives all you'll do with your dog. A trainer may attend some seminar or another, for example, and see the trainer demonstrate the "pineapple upside down drill" and come away thinking that drill is the answer to all his problems. It appears you already realize that a healthy attitude in a trainer will determine whether or not that effort will meet with success. Any drill, badly applied, can produce poor results. Even a decent technique, applied fairly and patiently, can produce success.

Evan
 

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I appreciate your observation about overall relationships between dog and handler. Many dogs quickly tire of dry sessions with little or no praise, or when praise itself is dry and passionless. I also appreciate that you're offering looks at different approaches in training for contrast, and not as a contest between the two.
I think what you're looking for is an end product that is a high functioning team, not just an animal that 'darned well does what he's told'. The coach/athlete view is most likely to get you there. Your attitude is what drives all you'll do with your dog. A trainer may attend some seminar or another, for example, and see the trainer demonstrate the "pineapple upside down drill" and come away thinking that drill is the answer to all his problems. It appears you already realize that a healthy attitude in a trainer will determine whether or not that effort will meet with success. Any drill, badly applied, can produce poor results. Even a decent technique, applied fairly and patiently, can produce success.

Evan
Nice post Evan. Like you say any drill that is approached badly will produce poor results.
 
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