RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,066 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been helping a friend research some litters and have already come across several litters for which I cannot verify many of the stated health clearances. I've been to the OFA site, CERF site, and the CNM site and already found several instances in which I can only get verification on one or two of the four or five stated clearances. When it otherwise looks like a really good litter, how do you go about getting actual proof of the clearances? Some breeders get really pi**y when you ask a simple question like this but if the third-party verification isn't there, what are you supposed to do?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,745 Posts
which clearances are missing? Some breeders do the cardiac and CERF but don't submit them to OFA, in which case they would not mind at all being asked.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,781 Posts
They should have copies they can send you if they don't get sent in to OFA. I have a problem with the lack of elbows-is it the breeder didn't do them or were they bad. I think it's all in how you approach the issue. If you say why aren't your clearances all on OFA? they may get annoyed, but if you ask which clearances they have done and would they mind if you ask for copies. If they get mad you can assume they don't have them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,807 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,066 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If the organizations that actually certify the clearances don't pull up the dogs when a search is done, I think anyone would be a little skeptical. I even researched some of the grandparents to see if the dogs were "clear by parentage." Even then, I didn't find clearances so then it becomes an issue of how far back you want to go to try to find out if clear was bred to clear 20 years ago and that's where the "clear" of today came from. With the elbows though, if the elbows are normal, then why on earth doesn't that show up on the OFA site when the hip grade may already be there? My gut tells me that some of those with "normal" elbows may have just had them shot at a vet's office who then said "They seem fine," and left it at that or didn't even have that done.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,787 Posts
If the organizations that actually certify the clearances don't pull up the dogs when a search is done, I think anyone would be a little skeptical. I even researched some of the grandparents to see if the dogs were "clear by parentage." Even then, I didn't find clearances so then it becomes an issue of how far back you want to go to try to find out if clear was bred to clear 20 years ago and that's where the "clear" of today came from. With the elbows though, if the elbows are normal, then why on earth doesn't that show up on the OFA site when the hip grade may already be there? My gut tells me that some of those with "normal" elbows may have just had them shot at a vet's office who then said "They seem fine," and left it at that or didn't even have that done.
If there are no elbows on OFA, assume they were not done or are bad. If they were not done, its kind of like they are bad. Because you have NO INFORMATION to go on. If you ask about them and someone says they are "normal" then ask to see the x-rays or a letter/certificate from OFA. If people get pissy about it, move on to the next litter.

If you ask about CERF/CNM etc, search the databases.

If its EIC, since there is not an actual database (not one at least from the testing lab) then ask to see the certificate of the certificates of the parents.

WRL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
687 Posts
I've looked for clearances on OFA and they have not been there because of an spelling error on either OFA's part or whom ever submitted the results.

When brought to the owners attention they were unaware of it and had the mistake rectified.

This has happened more times then I would have thought possible. :(

Pass on the litter if the breeder gets pissy with ANY of your questions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,668 Posts
I once had a CERF exam report dropped by their reporting system. The exam was dated 2/15/19xx and their report for for the period 3/1/19xx through 2/1/19xx. This caused me untold problems and CERF didn't even offer an apology. It was a simple input error by the report preparer but.....

Eric
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,684 Posts
If your interested in the litter call the breeder up and ask, a lot of results don't get registered for one reason or another, documents get lost etc. but the breeder should have copies of everything. For example I had both Hips and Elbow x-rays taken for one of my girls, (normal and excellent) had the vet send in both with payment to register both. The first copy of the x-rays were misplaced by the postal service, and the vet had to send in another copy, @ which time they either forgot to send in the Elbows, or forgot to check the box for both. So I end up with Hips registered Elbows not, and the option to resend in the Elbows, for full price, including the added benefit of dealing with the vet's office once more, which took ~2 months the first time. Needless to say I have yet to do that, However I still have the copies of the elbow x-rays, vet appraisal and everything else in case anyone asks, or wants them registered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
If there are no elbows on OFA, assume they were not done or are bad. If they were not done, its kind of like they are bad. Because you have NO INFORMATION to go on. If you ask about them and someone says they are "normal" then ask to see the x-rays or a letter/certificate from OFA. If people get pissy about it, move on to the next litter.
I understand what you're saying, but on the elbows, them being not done doesn't always mean they're bad. Elbow X-rays weren't really commonplace 10 years ago and there are still males that are 10+ breeding via frozen semen and that may be the case. Given a dog younger than that though, I'd be concerned. And I agree, if the breeder gets pissy about it then it's time to move on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,781 Posts
I understand what you're saying, but on the elbows, them being not done doesn't always mean they're bad. Elbow X-rays weren't really commonplace 10 years ago and there are still males that are 10+ breeding via frozen semen and that may be the case. Given a dog younger than that though, I'd be concerned. And I agree, if the breeder gets pissy about it then it's time to move on.
I have a stud over 14 with elbows done. I think it was pretty much what you did with a stud back then. Frozen semen from 20 years ago no. I still question no elbows done on field champions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
478 Posts
For EIC and CNM, it may be that they are not using the original laboratories. They would have to post the certificates to their websites to offer proof to the public. I would just ask for them to e-mail you copies of what they say they have but you cannot find.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,787 Posts
I have a stud over 14 with elbows done. I think it was pretty much what you did with a stud back then. Frozen semen from 20 years ago no. I still question no elbows done on field champions.
I agree with Nancy. Twenty years ago, then no. But 10 years ago, its either no info or bad info.

WRL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
I agree with Nancy. Twenty years ago, then no. But 10 years ago, its either no info or bad info.

WRL
Maybe it was becoming more popular of a test but I still dont think everyone was doing it like they are now. What about some prominent studs like high tech CEO and Tiger McBunn, no elbows. Or even look at their entire litter, only 2 out of 10 had them done. I highly doubt 80% of that litter had bad elbows. They're less than 20 years ago.

We didn't start doing elbows until after 2002 and I know of plenty of other ft people that started about then too. I'm not gonna argue that doing them now should even be an option for breeding, but I think some people don't understand why they might be missing from older dogs when people research on ofa. They'll see that the grand sire didn't have elbows done and they'll be thinking they were bad, when in fact they just weren't ever done.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,787 Posts
Maybe it was becoming more popular of a test but I still dont think everyone was doing it like they are now. What about some prominent studs like high tech CEO and Tiger McBunn, no elbows. Or even look at their entire litter, only 2 out of 10 had them done. I highly doubt 80% of that litter had bad elbows. They're less than 20 years ago.

We didn't start doing elbows until after 2002 and I know of plenty of other ft people that started about then too. I'm not gonna argue that doing them now should even be an option for breeding, but I think some people don't understand why they might be missing from older dogs when people research on ofa. They'll see that the grand sire didn't have elbows done and they'll be thinking they were bad, when in fact they just weren't ever done.
You're not getting the point. Like I said, they were either not done or they were bad. There is NO INFORMATION so one would have to ASSUME, that they were bad. You surely can't ASSUME they were good now can you?

If you want to breed to a dog without clearances, you have to take the risk that the dog "failed" that clearance until proven otherwise. To do otherwise is to breed with your head buried in the sand.

WRL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,066 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The one I found troubling was Optigen's site. I just don't get their policy. I contacted them to find out why I couldn't find information on dogs. I was told they do not post information on a database or automatically release it to any other agency like the OFA. They do it this way to "protect the privacy of their clients." WHAT??? Isn't this about trying to avoid or eliminate genetic conditions in dogs? Optigen is basically saying if you don't like the results, just sweep these issues under the rug. If a dog is a carrier, heaven forbid that information would get out to the general public and reduce the marketability of that dog or a puppy out of that bitch. Since they don't have a database, ALL someone has to do is put something like "prcd-PRA Clear Optigen 23-3789" after a dog's name. How many are going to question it? Yes, I know most people aren't going to do that. However, given that I've found breeders that stated various clearances but who said they "lost" the original certificates so they had to schedule "new" tests, I absolutely wouldn't put it past some people to just make stuff up. It's like an ad I saw recently for English Pointers. The seller stated the parents had been "guaranteed free of hip dysplasia." I don't recall seeing the grade "guaranteed free of" on the OFA's site.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,781 Posts
There are still studs that don't have elbows done, and until they figure out that people are assuming they are bad, they won't get done. One natl FC didn't have them done until someone pointed out they wouldn't breed to them because of no elbows and they got them done and they were fine. Next time you inquire about a stud mention that you are hesitant to breed because of lack of elbows and see what they say. If they get defensive, you can assume they are hiding something. Unfortunately with Optigen results, there are too few done to handle it that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,067 Posts
The one I found troubling was Optigen's site. I just don't get their policy. I contacted them to find out why I couldn't find information on dogs. I was told they do not post information on a database or automatically release it to any other agency like the OFA. They do it this way to "protect the privacy of their clients." WHAT??? Isn't this about trying to avoid or eliminate genetic conditions in dogs? Optigen is basically saying if you don't like the results, just sweep these issues under the rug. If a dog is a carrier, heaven forbid that information would get out to the general public and reduce the marketability of that dog or a puppy out of that bitch. Since they don't have a database, ALL someone has to do is put something like "prcd-PRA Clear Optigen 23-3789" after a dog's name. How many are going to question it? Yes, I know most people aren't going to do that. However, given that I've found breeders that stated various clearances but who said they "lost" the original certificates so they had to schedule "new" tests, I absolutely wouldn't put it past some people to just make stuff up. It's like an ad I saw recently for English Pointers. The seller stated the parents had been "guaranteed free of hip dysplasia." I don't recall seeing the grade "guaranteed free of" on the OFA's site.
The owner just has to send in the Optigen PRA documents to OFA, plus $15, to get it in the OFA database.

Isn't this how it works for a lot of tests/exams? Like CERF?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,781 Posts
The owner just has to send in the Optigen PRA documents to OFA, plus $15, to get it in the OFA database.

Isn't this how it works for a lot of tests/exams? Like CERF?
CERF comes over by itself.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top