[Bill Billups]

How do you know the difference?

3 YO BLM well bred in FT training. A "high" dog thats settled down in the past year pretty well. Through transition doing advanced work running big set ups. No problem until 6 months ago.

6 months ago ran a land triple at 8 a.m. but it was already in the 80's and very humid. Dog had big hunt on go bird and then a monster hunt on second bird. I wooried about him getting hot so I stopped and handled him to the bird and called him in and didn't get the last bird. Dog comes to the truck and drinks a bowl of water and is staked out in the shade . He's panting hard but seems OK. Get next dog out and look back at the dog after about a minute and he's got no strength in his back legs and is trying to get up on his front legs. Next can't get up at all and lays on his stomach panting but conscious. He gets iced down and recovers after about 30 minutes completely.

No further problems over the next 6 months with nearly daily training until last week. First set up of the day dog runs a quad with air temp maybe 80 or high 70s. Picks up all 4 birds in a big set up with no big hunts and comes back OK and gets staked out and watered and while on stakeout has weakness in back legs that lasts 20 minutes. Not as severe as before but laid off training for several days and now dog is training well like nothing has happened.

So, when I have a vet check him out what should he look at? My impression is there is no EIC test, so how do you discriminate this from heat exhaustion?

Would hypoglycemia be a factor? He's fed in the evening after training-not in the morning.

I don't know if the local vet will have encountered this before so I'd like some input for ideas for him to consider.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[bandcollector]

Sounds famillar and I haven't figured it out yet. I have had most of my episodes after big hunts. The symptoms all suggest EIC but so far it has only happened with heat involved.....

 

[ErinsEdge]

It sounds like heat exhaustion to me. If you look at this chart you can tell when it's dangerous to allow dogs to over work.

 

[Pushbutton2]

EIC Website

Haven't looked at in ?????? wow don't get me to lie :lol:

http://www.thelabradorclub.com/library/eicstudy.html

It has links to some colleges studying it.

this site might have some info

http://www.searchdogsne.org/medical/Health Index.htm

 

[Losthwy]

This person may be of help, she is doing research on EIC in Canada.

Dr. Susan Taylor DVM
306-966-7093

[email protected]

I would also contact breeder and other owners if others others in litter have had similar episodes.

 

[NateB]

Sounds like heat problems to me. EIC can be worse in heat but would have had some symptoms during the 6 month period when he said did not see any problems. Now that it is finally warming up we tend to think we can go train hard, but do not forget to condition your dogs and thye need time to adapt to warmer temps and the humidity is a killer.

 

[jeff t.]

Sounds like heat problems to me. EIC can be worse in heat but would have had some symptoms during the 6 month period when he said did not see any problems. Now that it is finally warming up we tend to think we can go train hard, but do not forget to condition your dogs and thye need time to adapt to warmer temps and the humidity is a killer.

Nate,

I think it would be a good idea to repost your article regarding prevention and treatment of heat exhaustion.

Jeff

 

[ASH]

Also sounds like heat problems to me. My girl had the same thing. Humidity played a big part in how much she could be trained. There was always a warning sign with mine. If you watch your dog you might be able to pick up on the signs that he is going to go down. With mine, she did not sit properly. One leg would be crooked, cocked to the side slightly, rather than sitting with both legs under her. When I saw that, I would stop her immediately and get her cooled off quickly. Most times I could avoid a collapse if I caught it soon enough. Also found that once she went down the first time, it took less for her to go down for the next couple of months.

Anne

 

[Ken Newcomb]

My daughters dog that had EIC it was quite obvious the problem. The dog did not have to be exhausted to loose control. Very, very sad thing to see happen to a very fine animal.

 

[Granddaddy]

I would also say likely heat stress. As for recognizing the difference from EIC, I would say it relates to the recovery time & the level of the dog's mental alertness during & immediately following the collapse - based upon the suspected two EIC episodes I have witnessed.

With heat stress I've seen, the dog recovers slowly, is mentally & physically lethargic (& may include nausia) even after the acute panting is beginning to subside & the dog will not be totally recovered physically (fit for a high-level of training activity) for 24-72 hrs. An EIC episode may occur in cool or warm weather where there is a a high level of excited activity that results in the dog going down during the activity. The two dogs I witnessed both recoverd within 15-30 mins once stopped from the activity & were mentally alert even during the episode. They were symptom free within 15-20 mins after the activity was stopped.

 

[SueLab]

I'm not sure how anyone can know for sure without seeing the animal.

Aren't there other indicators that would help rule out heat exhaustion? Like brick red tongue, gums, etc?

 

[EdA]

I'm not sure how anyone can know for sure without seeing the animal.

Aren't there other indicators that would help rule out heat exhaustion? Like brick red tongue, gums, etc?

no because EIC dogs typically have core temperature elevations similar to those seen in heat exhaustion, the only discernible difference is that EIC dogs reach that level much more quickly

 

[Beverly Burns]

Let me preface by saying that we have submitted appropriate samples to the study being conducted on EIC. Our pup only had two episodes while under our ownership, however both were in water and only the hind legs went out as she dragged herself up on shore, bird in mouth. She didn't even know anything had happened and the recovery was only a few minutes. We had another dog years ago with a heat problem and the recovery was very long and even IV administration overnight once. I hope the study has success in determining a genetic probability test . It's great that the CNM research has paid off and maybe down the road the same will happen to EIC. I know that line breeding has created some great dogs but looking to the future, what more will pop out?

 

[Bill Billups]

EIC

I'd forgotten about this post. Unfortunately I'll never know on this dog because shortly after I posted this question my dog was killed in a freak accident while training- it was unrelated to heat or EIC. I hope that a test for EIC eventually becomes available.

Bill

 

[Lisa S.]

Have heard that once the dog starts getting heat exhaustion, his heat tolerance level goes down during future training sessions.

Based on your descriptions, it sounds like heat exhaustion. Print the posted chart, laminate it and check it before doing any training or shorten your sessions.

If his tongue is half out before you send him for another bird, he's already too hot.

 

[Debbie C]

B3.....
Hi Bill......I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. I recently had something similiar happen to one of my dogs, and it scared me half to death. She is fine now, but it has definetely made me more aware of the outside temp. Again.....I am so sorry for the loss of your dog.

Debbie

 

[Bill Billups]

Thanks

Thanks Debbie H,

It's been a tough spring. I was really attached and had high hopes for him as a FT dog. In retrospect I think it was heat intolerance that I had witnessed those 2 episodes but will never know for sure. His death was from trauma and was unrelated to this problem.


Bill

 

[windycanyon]

I want to bring this back up to the top and ask a question.

How would you rule out a seizure issue-- not all seizures are grand mal type (long ago I personally had a health issue that caused some petit mal seizures where I just spaced out.. could a dog remain conscious and just stagger like a drunk.. still wag tail, roll over, etc).

What would low potassium in blood indicate?

Grey/white gums (almost shocky) versus bright red?

High rectal temp even after hosing down for 5 min +.

Slow recovery, very lethargic for at least 1 hr, vet admin'd diazipam and w/in another hour fine.

 

[30 caliber]

B3- I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. Every owner's worst nightmare. Windycanyon: Could be a seizure, with the heat being the stressor that lowered the seizure threshold (the level of abnormal electrical activity in the brain that has to be exceeded for the seizure to manifest). But, maybe not, as the response to valium would probably happen faster if the valium was administered IV. Did the vet give IV fluids at the same time? Low potassium? Had the dog had vomiting or diarrhea, thus losing potassium, prior to the problem? Low blood sugar could cause shock-like symptoms, but usually the rectal temperature is normal or low. Did you have bloodwork done on the dog very soon after the episodes? Without testing blood, urine, etc., the list of possibilities is getting longer. Does not sound like EIC though. (I am a DVM).

 

[windycanyon]

B3- I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. Every owner's worst nightmare. Windycanyon: Could be a seizure, with the heat being the stressor that lowered the seizure threshold (the level of abnormal electrical activity in the brain that has to be exceeded for the seizure to manifest). But, maybe not, as the response to valium would probably happen faster if the valium was administered IV. Did the vet give IV fluids at the same time? Low potassium? Had the dog had vomiting or diarrhea, thus losing potassium, prior to the problem? Low blood sugar could cause shock-like symptoms, but usually the rectal temperature is normal or low. Did you have bloodwork done on the dog very soon after the episodes? Without testing blood, urine, etc., the list of possibilities is getting longer. Does not sound like EIC though. (I am a DVM).

Not sure about IV fluids-- wasn't mentioned. No vomitting, no diarrhea. Bloodwork all fine except for K being low.
ETA: Diazipam was an injection.