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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
> I train Labradors for field and obedience. I have never delt with
aggressive dogs, but I have a lady that brought me a full blooded 2 year
old Boxer that has some issues. I am boarding the dog until sunday, at which time I would like to give her some reccomendations of someone who can help her.
>
> Problem: The dogs has become aggressive. It seemed to have started after she took the dog to a groomer to be bathed and nails done. they never got his nails done..... shortly after that the dog slipped out the front door and attacked a dog waking down the side walk. (october) In dec. the neighbor (little girl( brought over her puppy, and the dog attacked her trying to get to the puppy.
> They took it to the vet on Monday and it tried to bite the vet. They
brought it to me and he tried to bite me while giving him a treat, my
husband tried to give him a treat ( 6'4 340 lb) and he tried to snap at him.( He hasn't done that again. They are best buds now.
Later last night we where able to pet him and he would take a treat. This
morning i tried to let him out of his run and put a leash on him to walk him
and he snapped at me again. My husband was able to walk him. Owner knows there is a problem but would like to try to fix it as opposed to putting him down. She has 2 dachounds and he is fine with them, He now is getting along with the other dogs here one at a time. He really just seems nervous more that mean. CAn anyone give her some direction? Does any have any reccomendations of a trainer that can help her? She is in Matthews,(Charlotte NC)
>
> Thanks
>
> Deborah Thomas
> Old Meadow Kennels.
> 704-609-7618
>
 

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I don't have advice for a trainer-sorry. However-if the dog truly attacked the little girl-just me, but I couldn't own a dog like that. I love my dogs & dogs in general more than I do most people, but I would put down a dog that I couldn't trust not to bite a child.

M
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I intend to agree, however. I don't think the dog was after the girl just the puppy, and he didn't bite her. But I guess you never know what might have happened.
Also, becuse of the 2 inceidents, they have completly changed his life style. He was always walked by their 12 yr old son, and now he only gets to go in the backyard, he gets locked up when anyone comes over, so I think he is confused as to what is going on. I think they just want to give hime the benefit of the doubt before they put him down. THey have 3 children and they get along with him fine as well as their 2 small dogs.
 

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Deb.
I don't know any trainers in your area.
But as a general rule you can find a good behaviorist/trainer in a phone book.
The fact that your hubby can handle the dog tells me its pretty workable. The prognosis for the owners are not nearly as good.
Have them ask the trainer what there program is like. for every 100 training places that say they handle aggression only a small handful are successful and in my opinion legitimate.
Its easy to tell which ones will help.
The dog should go through CC (force)on some of the obedience, commands.,,, just like a retriever. And the owners need to learn how to maintain the training. If they offer something like that then its at least a good sign anyway
There should be 1 or 2 near most metropolitan areas.
Its really the owners who will require most of the training ,,,so make sure the person doing the work is available to them.


Anyway thats the short of it.


Pete
 
G

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Debthomas said:
I intend to agree, however. I don't think the dog was after the girl just the puppy, and he didn't bite her. But I guess you never know what might have happened.
Also, becuse of the 2 inceidents, they have completly changed his life style. He was always walked by their 12 yr old son, and now he only gets to go in the backyard, he gets locked up when anyone comes over, so I think he is confused as to what is going on. I think they just want to give hime the benefit of the doubt before they put him down. THey have 3 children and they get along with him fine as well as their 2 small dogs.
Deb, your quote said the dog attacked "her" trying to get to the puppy?

I have a very serious problem with people trying to keep an obviously aggressive dog in a home with children. I HATE it for the dog. But when people call and say my dog did a, b, c and I have small children, but I JUST CAN'T get rid of the dog -- I feel there's something seriously wrong with them.

The odds that this started with the nail clipping are slim to none. Had he ever been out of the house before? Had he been boarded before? I'm going to guess that he lacks socialization and is going to act out on anyone outside of his comfort zone at home...

I assume the dog isn't well-trained? Well, that SHOULD have been step 1.

When dogs start behaving like this, I always HOPE there's a physiological reason. But in many cases, it's either poor breeding and more often poor socialization and lack of boundaries and training.

If the dog has behaved like that MULTIPLE times in a short period, the odds are the kids are going to be next.

If they want to take that risk, then I question that they should even have children... Yes, I understand it's sad for the dog. But it's even sadder for the children...

-K
 

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Ditto what Kristie said.

It is quite probable that this dog is playing off the other 2 small dogs, as they are terriers :twisted: . Was this dog brought up from a pup with them?

If the problem is stemming from "imprinting" from the doxies, they WILL need to be separated, PERMANENTLY (as old habits are not only a challenge to break but will come back if not addressed)when and if the serious training begins on the boxer.
 

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Fact and trueth are 2 different things.
Facts change with circumstances. Trueth never changes.
Dogs do what they due because people do what they do.
The trueth of the matter is the dog can be fixed but it must be maintained its entire life. Only a realatively small percentage of people make it a life style which is required for the PEOPLE to change their dogs behavior. While it is true that these dogs gravitate toward aggressive behavior they only do so because of the action of their lesser pack members (the owners)

I have many many sucess stories of highly aggressive dogs which now are totally rehabilitated to the max. Not even the same animal. But its not realy about the trainer its about the owners who took the information and incorperated it in their life style.

Plain and simple.

It very do able,,,,, The people need competent guidance and dedication.

And also I have no problem with people feeding this type of dog a lead pill.
But many people just can't bring themselves to do that. For them there is hope and help.
I agree when people say they need to put the dog down. For them it might be the best option. But I also agree with the person who seeks help.
Anyway thats my experience any way
 
G

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Pete said:
Fact and trueth are 2 different things.
Facts change with circumstances. Trueth never changes.
Dogs do what they due because people do what they do.
The trueth of the matter is the dog can be fixed but it must be maintained its entire life. Only a realatively small percentage of people make it a life style which is required for the PEOPLE to change their dogs behavior. While it is true that these dogs gravitate toward aggressive behavior they only do so because of the action of their lesser pack members (the owners)

I have many many sucess stories of highly aggressive dogs which now are totally rehabilitated to the max. Not even the same animal. But its not realy about the trainer its about the owners who took the information and incorperated it in their life style.

Plain and simple.

It very do able,,,,, The people need competent guidance and dedication.

And also I have no problem with people feeding this type of dog a lead pill.
But many people just can't bring themselves to do that. For them there is hope and help.
I agree when people say they need to put the dog down. For them it might be the best option. But I also agree with the person who seeks help.
Anyway thats my experience any way
I have no problem with someone seeking help, just not at the expense of children. And it's hard to find a situation where a dog will never again be in a position to attack. I know they're able to be rehab'd. My concern is that once they behave in this manner, there's always a chance it will happen again. And that's not fair to the people and animals around the dog in question. It's sad...

-K
 

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I am interested in dog aggression and have been trying to learn about it. It is not the big mystery it used to seem, to me at least. There are different types of aggression, or maybe I should say reasons a dog is aggressive.

There are also aggression specialists who are very good. I have a friend who is a very good one. I have watched her work, and she has helped me work through problems with some of the weird dogs I get here. A good consultant can identify the dog's issues and the situations in which incidents occur, evaluate the dog's potential for constructive re-training, and evaluate the family's potential to implement a program--well enough to prevent injuries and lawsuits.

Good specialists are not cheap. They have a lot invested in learning what they know, and they typically spend a lot of time with a "case." Is this family prepared to spend several hundred dollars on the Boxer, and discipline themselves to following a plan?

Deborah, I find the time dogs are most likely to bite or snap is when I go into their run, or reach into a dog box, to put on a collar or attach a lead. If I have any doubts about a dog, I go in the run and lasso him/her with a slip lead (not a dramatic thing, just open the loop 'way big, so you can slip it over the dog's head without getting your hand close to its head and neck, then snug it up). Then I lead the dog out of the run and put the regular collar/lead on it. They tolerate this much better once out of their run. If the dog is in a crate, hold the loop of the slip lead around the opening so that when the dog comes out, its head goes right into the loop. Dogs in owner's cars are also bad. If the owner can get the dog out, let them!

I'm resisting the temptation to analyze anything that's been said already, as I'm a beginner, and it's hearsay--nothing wrong with your descriptions, Deborah, but I haven't seen the dog.

Amy Dahl
 

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I have never used this center for behavior problems but they have an excellent staff of veterinarians and support people.

The behavior section focuses on the management of complicated behavior problems of the dog and cat. This includes aggression, separation anxiety, phobias, and compulsive disorders. Following an extensive history, the treatment encompasses modifying the pet's behavior, environmental manipulation and pharmacological management.

Carolina Veterinary Specialists Medical Center
2225 Township Rd
Charlotte, NC 28273
704-504-9608
________
BMW CS Concept
 

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I have no problem with someone seeking help, just not at the expense of children. And it's hard to find a situation where a dog will never again be in a position to attack. I know they're able to be rehab'd. My concern is that once they behave in this manner, there's always a chance it will happen again. And that's not fair to the people and animals around the dog in question. It's sad...
You never put anyone at risk thats for sure.

Its always possible to put a dog in the position of never hurting anyone.
Its the handlers or owners responsability.
That why teaching people is paramount.
Its not nearly enough that the dog behavior changes around certain people.
every responsable adult in charge of the care of the animal must put to practice what they have learned.
It is easy yet requires alot of work.
Dogs can change their behavior merly by being in the presence of certain people. for good or for bad Lot of neat stuff to consider anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thank you all for your responses. First, The dog is actually very obedient. he will sit, stay, walks at heal, comes when called, does not jump on you. I think the folks are willing to spend the $ to try and fix the problem if it can be identified and is fixable. They are not willing to put the dog before the kids. They just don't want to run out and put the dog down if they don't have to. The dog was raised from a pup with the daschounds.

Amy, do you have any names and numbers.

Again, thanks and I will relay the information to them.
 

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Pete said:
Deb.
I don't know any trainers in your area.
But as a general rule you can find a good behaviorist/trainer in a phone book.
Pete
I have to disagree. Strongly disagree. ANYBODY can hang out a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer, even JQP whose one dog he ever owned was the "star" in his obedience class.

That doesn't qualify these people to train dogs, let alone these kinds of dogs. The dog's life and human safety are on the line.

The owners not only need a dog trainer, they need a GOOD dog trainer. Before hiring anyone, ask to see case histories of successful treatment of dogs with this kind of problem, and ask to speak to their owners as references.

I've put a call into a friend in NC and will see what I can come up with, but please do NOT just "let your fingers do the walking" through the yellow pages.
 

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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:47 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete wrote:
Deb.
I don't know any trainers in your area.
But as a general rule you can find a good behaviorist/trainer in a phone book.
Pete


I have to disagree. Strongly disagree. ANYBODY can hang out a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer, even JQP whose one dog he ever owned was the "star" in his obedience class
Have them ask the trainer what there program is like. for every 100 training places that say they handle aggression only a small handful are successful and in my opinion legitimate.

I just said that :D :D

Just because you don't know anyone doesn't mean they don't exist. :lol:

If you go through the phone book you will notice there are people who put adds for plumbers, electricians,concrete ,,you name it,,,, do you think most of them don't know their trade.



There are equally astute trainers most likely in every state of the union. Because there are pets troubled in every state of the union.
There are electricians in every state of the union because there is electric in every state of the union.
There are astute plumbers in every state of the union because there are pipes in every state
I can ask a hand full of questions and immediately know someones level of experience.,,,,
So could a plumber about plumbing, and a electrician about electric.
There is nothing magical about dog training.
Its scientific like electric and its an art like judo or whatever. Art is the applied science. Anyone interersted is capable of learning and doing and seeing results.
 

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Pete, back away from the quote feature before you get an edit box on your thingy again.... :D

No, seriously, who are you quoting in the second box?

The difference between dog trainers, and plumbers and electricians, is that plumbers and electricians are regulated and held to a minimum standard of performance. Dog trainers are not. I repeat: ANYONE can hang out a shingle (and/or take out an ad in the yellow pages) and call themselves a dog trainer. There is no required education, apprenticeship, or performance evaluation before assuming the self-bestowed title.

Yes, you could call, as a few questions, and have a pretty good idea if the "trainer" you're talking to knows what s/he is talking about. So could I. So could lots of people here on the forum. But people with the knowledge to identify these kinds of knowledgeable trainers aren't likely to get themselves into this kind of a mess with their dogs to begin with.
 

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Sadly, this sounds very familiar. Same age, same scenario, seemingly sudden aggression out of the blue. Dog's ok with some people (coincidentally male) that he respects. Dog won't let other people near his crate, etc. etc. Dog is usually fine with children and strangers, was ok out in public, etc.

Here are my feelings from being in this same situation. I tried rehabbing the dog, changing almost everything about how I acted with him, structuring his life very strictly. There was some confusion on his part. There was also some relief on his part as some of his aggression was environmental due to having too much going on in his living environment, having another male dog to deal with, having too many owners/leaders to answer too, etc. So having a structured environment without daily interaction with all of those people and the other dog was helpful to a degree.

My dog also had hypothyroidism. We treated it and it helped to alleviate some of his anxiety. If they are serious about trying to help him, get him to a vet, get a full blood panel, full thyroid panel, full physical exam, etc. My dog also had one hip that was bad. So he bit after being fallen on.

I love my family, but I wouldn't bring another personal dog into that environment. I only got my new pup because I knew I wasn't going to be living there. My parents have my old dog's littermate. He's fine with the kids and generally easy-going. But I can see some of the same tendencies in him, manifested differently. He's very protective of the house and yard, he will snap at my pup if he comes too close to where he's laying, things like that. My parents more or less let the dog do what he wants. My younger brother and sister are 7 and 8 respectively and my little brother is very much a wild child and does not know how to act around the dogs. He's very rough with them, disrupts them while they're laying quietly, etc.

From my perspective, it takes a lot of work to keep a dog like this because it's ALWAYS going to be a maintenance issue. Once slip can send the dog back to square one. For every two steps of progress I made, I made one step back. It was extremely frustrating. I used to think that in the right environment my dog could succeed. But when he had an "episode" it was completely out of his control. He was a very obedient dog, would even listen to me while he was growling.

They need to weigh everything and take it all into account before making their decision. I really sympathize with them. I put my dog down, it was the right decision given all circumstances. That may or may not be the right decision for them but only they can make it. As far as adopting the dog out, I thought about it, almost did it, in the end I decided that I wouldn't put another person at risk, give another person my problems, and if the dog needed to be put down, I needed to be the one who did it.

Sorry for being so long but I tend to get long-winded when talking about my boy. It may help them to hear from someone who's been there.

Good luck to them in whatever they decide.

Kourtney
 

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As was stated by some......
1.)When children are involved I personally have a NO tolerance for any dog biting. :x
2.)Dogs never bite "All of a sudden".
3.) All the rehab and the money in the world will "Never" guarantee that one time where "Bozer' decides to bite. Dogs store info. that works for them.
4.) My experience with owners of aggressive dogs is: They can't read their own dog and they put way too many "Human" emotions on them. :roll:
As was the case with the G.S. in my Obed. class: The young owner did a great job with his dog "Tyler's" obed.I also told Kyle to never trust "Tyler" with other dogs (which was his aggression) EVER!!!!!!!
While I have seen my share of aggressive dogs.....Once they snap at me I never forget it and deal with them appriately(spelling-can't spell today :roll: )
Good Luck with your client and be careful!!
Sue
 

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Ellenor
I am away from my button
You are funny and I enjoy your cleverness :D
However I strongly disagree.
Y

There are lots and lots of people everywhere that have dedicated years to this portion of dog training,,,just like any other type of training
Yes anyone can hang out a shingle. but some shingles are valid :D
The reason people think the way they do about aggressive dogs is because they don't have an understanding of dog behavior in that catagory.
Getting referals might sound good but numbers can be misleading. If I gave you 50 numbers of satisfied customers you might think "hey thats good" you may not see the other thousand in the file that are pissed off. :D

Watching it done is a good way of seeing if someone knows what there doing. ,,,, but most people don't know what they are looking at anyway so thats a wash.
Or hows this one. Ever send a nice gun dog home to only find out its been on the couch for 6 months. What happens the first day out.
Blame it on the trainer,,,,,not the apathetic lathargic pet owner.

This is real life and the trainer has no control over what happens down the road.

I had all this in mind when I left my little piece of advice this morning :D

Thats why I said what I said. A small hand full out of a hundred :D
The dog needs to be forced on certain commands and please don't make me explain how or why :D
Certain methods make it easier for the pet owner to make it work for them.



Anyway I'm done fowling up Debs thread now :D
 
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