[Misty Marsh]

I have seen "high" dogs work, and I've seen alittle lower energy level dogs work. Am I wrong to say that a "high" dog can work themselves into wrenzy where it will lose concentration on it's mark, or line and then run like a banshee all over covering ground. I use to think that my BLF did'nt have the crazy energy to do this stuff, but I see now that she has great desire and concentration because shes not freaking at the line. Will this affect her later on, or is it a positive trait?

 

[john fallon]

I say start out with as much dog (HIGH)as you have the ability to train/ handle,then try not to take too much out of then because you can't give it back.
john

 

[Howard N]

I didn't vote 'cause I'm not sure what the question is. But, which dog do I want? It depends, (LVL 2003)

You are absolutely right, some dogs work themselves into a frenzy on the line and couldn't mark a snow goose on a golf course at 60 yards. I've seen others; Cosmo comes to mind, or Hiwood Citation (Ticket) for you Texas guys; that bounced around and generally worked themselves into a tizzy on the line and could nail the marks. You'd swear they weren't looking and they'd nail the mark anyway.

I've seen other calmer dogs sit on the line, look at each bird going down and not mark worth beans. 'Course there are others who naturally sit like a gentleman, and could mark a mosquito at 300 yards. One of these days I'd like to get one of them!!!

Most of us make the best of what we've got. I like the calmer end of the spectrum but I'll work with the higher end if the talent is there. At the highest end of the spectrum, I'd leave them to someone who wants to beat up dogs every day. I remember Mike Shopbell, Gonia's assistant for a few years, say about Cosmo pups. "You beat them up all week long and they still creep on Saturday." I don't want one of them, but I don't want one who kind of watches the birds go down, ambles out to each one, walks back, and picks up all the birds with no hunts either.

I remember Gonia and I talking about this one time. He felt that later on in the dog's career that high end desire would still be there and the dog would still be working at a high level. If that high end wasn't there the dog would be ground down with steady all age training and would be retired early. I think he's right, especially for the pro trained dog. Us amateurs can tailor our training for our particular dog, mix in the easier attitude stuff with the hard all age concepts. Pros do this too, but we can do it much more than a pro whose dogs have to fit into the wham bam, thank-you ma'am, style of training for 20 dogs.

I hope this post makes sense and you're able to take out a real definite, "It depends," (LVL, 2003) out of it. 'Course it's all MHDAO. (Is that copyrighted too?)

 

[Misty Marsh]

I guess the ponit that I was getting at was weather a high dog is a better starting point when reeled with training, or if a somewhat calmer dog with good energy and desire is a better choice? By calmer I mean still eager as h-ll, but not dancing, viberating, and foaming at the mouth form a release.

 

[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

You can take some out..........

I like high dogs for it is easier to take some out rather than put some in .... I have both and it is flustrating to try to get a low dog to do the work required to do any thing without almost begging the dog. .....On the other hand on a HIGH dog control of dog is key to work in field.

 

[Kevin Mays]

most of your big name women in field trials want to start with a dog that is a little high energy but they want them calmed all the way down by the time they are starting to run q's. often you hear of field trial dogs changing owners cause the dogs are too hot. alot depends on the experience of the trainer also. a first time dog trainer dont want a fire plug. i feel more comfortable with a dog that will watch the marks but i dont want a dog if it dont tear out after marks with reckless abandon. i dont care how good it marks i aint standing on line with a pig. win or lose i will do it with pride.

 

[2blackdogs]

Give me the high rollers. Every day is a new challenge. Keeps things interesting.

2blackdogs

 

[BIG DOG]

Being a professional guide, I think the high dogs are better, any day a dog could pick up 36 ducks, plus x # of geese, in frozen rice fields or off a stand in timber, properly trained I know I have the desire and energy not quit me when the water turns to ice.
Im in a wierd situation this year, my pup has a lot desire and drive, but she is a low collar dog (high 3 on TT flway and she is at her max)

 

[john fallon]

Big Dog,
If a 3 gets the job done all the BETTER!
JOHN

 

[Steve Shaver]

Well guys I like to be different. I prefer the calmer dog. A high roller that you have to fight with constantly to keep under control drives me #%^&&# CRAZY.
I have also stated before that I don't completely agree with the you can take it out of them but you can't put it in'em statement. I've got a little yeller dog that was pretty low desire at 10 months but has turned into a pretty fine dog at seventeen months. To me a once a wild man always a wild man. I'm nervous as hell going to the line with a dog that runs on jet fuel not to mention trying to hunt ducks with them.
Both types of dog are fine. I think the bottom line is you gotta match the dog with the trainer. I personally do better with the calmer dog.

 

[subroc]

My novice answer.

I voted for high desire.

My thinking on the whole thing:

A high desire dog is my choice but I don?t think he is the right dog for everyone. My limited experience show that many want a dog with desire but the dog will do house pet duties as well. An extremely high desire dog will require far too much maintenance/control and many may find the task daunting. If the dog is going to live on a pros truck or be pro trained it probably doesn?t matter. If you plan on training the dog yourself, an honest evaluation of your ability to control that high level of enthusiasm and desire needs to be made.

If you don?t have the ability to channel the desire, you will spend all your time fighting with a fire breathing dragon and both you and the dog will lose.

This is based on high desire vs. eager and not high desire vs. no desire. No desire is a waste of anyone?s time.

Joe Miano

 

[tom]

I think the bottom line is you gotta match the dog with the trainer. I personally do better with the calmer dog.

My sentiments exactly, if the trainer is always late with the whistle/correction, the dog will never develop to its potential anyway.
A few year ago I had a 'Woody x Pacer bitch' pup that her idea of "sit" was to spin in a 4ft circle, and could mark a quad while doing it. I figured out real quick that I was always sucking in air when I should have already blown the damn whistle

What is see with quite a few people with dogs like that is that if they take their eye off the dog for 1/10th of a second they loose their dog.

Some people can think fast enough to keep up with a dog like that, and some of us can't.

tom

ps; I didn't vote because you didn't list 'in between'

 

[Misty Marsh]

I posted this question for my own curiousity, I see the type of dog that I have and see great potential as shes somewhere in between. In my novice opinion there must come a time where all the forcing, pressure, bumping, and stick corrections just become almost unfair to the dog, am I wrong?

 

[Howard N]

there must come a time where all the forcing, pressure, bumping, and stick corrections just become almost unfair to the dog, am I wrong?

I dunno. Is it fair to the trainer to have a dog who constantly tears up the holding blind, beats the handler to the line from the holding blind, bounces around, creeps big time, vocalizes, and breaks? You bump, you beat, you burn and the dog still acts like a maniac. Truthfully, that's trainer abuse by the dog. I have my limits. I won't beat up a dog beyond a certain point. I'm probably a little to much of an escalator instead of a nip it in the bud extreme pressure the first time type trainer. I've stayed away from Cosmo pups because of this.

In this game the dog has to do the work. Fair or unfair only enters it as what works and what doesn't. If it works, it must be fair, if not it was unfair.

I remember FC AFC Riverbound Brandy. She was an extremely high desire dog. I don't think she EVER sat for all three birds of a triple. I watched her get burned off a point 3 times and she got on the point for a fourth time!!! She earned 80 or so open points and 30 or so amateur points and retired after she was 10. Damn good dog but I would have shot her if she'd been mine. She was also an extremely good happy house dog who took up half the couch when just the kids were home. When dad got home it was off the couch.

This is a PS I added a little later. With 80 open points and 30 amateur points who do you think Brandy worked better for: pro or owner? As far as I'm concerned those extreme high desire dogs can go to someone who hires a pro to do the training. If you have to work with a dog like that you might as well be paid for it.

I'll take a dog that's eager, high desire but not crazy, likes birds and retrieving. I want to get him/her as a young pup so I can put in the training at a young age so he/she learns to learn with me. Then, assuming he/she marks to my satisfaction, I want to keep him and train him his whole career. FC and AFC at 3, NFC and NAFC at 5,6,7,8 and 9. OK, ok, I fell asleep and I'm dreaming. Z Z z z zzzz 8)

 

[BIG DOG]

john, somebody made a post after us that said you have to match the dog w/ the trainer, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Steve Shaver]

I think Howard has the best answers to this question. He is much better at putting his toughts into words than I.