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Hillman is very different except for #1 above. 2. Lots of obedience-sit is huge, 3. Steady very young, 4. orange bumpers -emphasize nose, 5. no guns, gunners until obedient sit and steady which starts at a few months old.
Actually, if the seminar I attended was any indication, Bill's pups see lots of gunner thrown marks via "wishbone" style marks never involving a request to sit or any kind of steadiness.
 

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Thanks Dennis, I never knew Carr recommended anything on puppy raising. I've never seen your list before, although it's similar to what I've seen recommended by others. What I've done is an adaption of what Ferucci did. Different from both.
Howard, care to elaborate?

BB
 

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Actually, if the seminar I attended was any indication, Bill's pups see lots of gunner thrown marks via "wishbone" style marks never involving a request to sit or any kind of steadiness.
Can you explain this for me? I don't understand "wishbone" marks.
 

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Actually, if the seminar I attended was any indication, Bill's pups see lots of gunner thrown marks via "wishbone" style marks never involving a request to sit or any kind of steadiness.
Charles

Yes I know that Hillman is a big fan of the "Y" marking drill or wishbone style. However, in his DVD when he throws exciting breaker birds it is always with a signal like hey-hey. There his intro to "remote" gunners requires steadiness and doesn't occur until vary late in the pup's development. If you are saying he allows a puppy to break on a remote gunner thrown mark after all the earlier steadiness work, I am very surprised. Regardless, I wouldn't do it personally. Perhaps the clue is that you said no request to sit BUT I think gunners can be so exciting that I wouldn't ever want to have them go over the top in excitement just to do a Y drill. I am continually battling control on marks on my hi-power dogs.
 

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The point could be missed here in the video where he repeatedly brings up during the early parts of the training especially in the "Traffic Cop" that nothing takes place until he says it does. It is built through repetition and throwing bumpers then OB then come back to the mark and this is repeated. Even when a duck is introduced. Thrown mark, sent, bird retrieved, bird thrown back, then back to OB, (duck still out there). Then dog is allowed to get the mark when sent. After OB is up to his standard. Point being, you don't go until I send you. Any action done is at my direction. That is what I think is being built up to with each "day" in the video. I can see it the pup I have now. I could be wrong but it seems the real concept is not the sit but the dog not taking action until it is told to do so whether retrieve the mark, sit heel,or here.
I am all ears on this one!!!

If I remember from training a while back I believe Mary said the wishbone or Y drill helps teach depth perception on the marks. I could be wrong it's been a few years.
 

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The point could be missed here in the video where he repeatedly brings up during the early parts of the training especially in the "Traffic Cop" that nothing takes place until he says it does. It is built through repetition and throwing bumpers then OB then come back to the mark and this is repeated. Even when a duck is introduced. Thrown mark, sent, bird retrieved, bird thrown back, then back to OB, (duck still out there). Then dog is allowed to get the mark when sent. After OB is up to his standard. Point being, you don't go until I send you. Any action done is at my direction. That is what I think is being built up to with each "day" in the video. I can see it the pup I have now. I could be wrong but it seems the real concept is not the sit but the dog not taking action until it is told to do so whether retrieve the mark, sit heel,or here.
I am all ears on this one!!!
I agree with you this idea of doing what I say when I say and not do what you want is a key to Bills puppy work. However, it behooves us to make the teachings as simple and straight forwards as possible while progressing the pup. When you start to introduce guns and gunners and birds you introduce a lot of additional stimuli and parameters in the equation for the pup to figure out. Is it reasonable for a pup to distinguish that one time I break on the throw and another time I don't when the only diff is a quiet sit? I think we're starting to push the envelope here. More importantly why do we need a dog to break on a Y drill? I'd actually prefer a lot of focus and concentration.

I am throwing out my thoughts here without having talked to Bill about this detail. Perhaps he can change my mind as I am always open to new ideas. But, based on the dogs I have it would be a challenge and I've had some real intelligent dogs!!
 

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Can you explain this for me? I don't understand "wishbone" marks.
I have assumed that wishbone and Y marks are the same. That is one angle back and one angle in on one side and another square on the opposite side (or minor variations thereof). Creates a Y or a Wishbone configuration.

Sorry no diagram handy

PS See error in this ASS -U- ME below!!! Post 29
 

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Howard, care to elaborate?

BB

I hope Howard will respond. Ferruci, Woodland and McFall were all very savvy Alaskan trainers with notable success. They did a lot of things differently than at least many Easterners or Mid-Westerners or even West Coasters or the Texans!! They had a lot of marking and blind drills based on repetiton and building. There is some documentation of their techniques but not much compared to other programs.

The characteristic that I have noted with the above three is tremendous work effort. They really invested time in their dogs. Most of my knowledge is of their All-Age work so if Howard can elaborate on puppy development--great!!

BTW, another person who trains puppies differently is Jack Vollstad from California- so if anybody has details there -let us know. OK stop lurking Melanie!!
 

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Clarification on Hillman puppy advancement.

I just spoke with Bill and better understand one of the things that he does with 4-5 month old puppies and even very advanced dogs.

With a partner the two of you go into the field and split up, each with a bumper. When the pup(dog) is distant from one person, he gets the dog coming towards him and then throws a bumper. The dog is not sitting and the gunner is not standing and shooting like in a conventional marking scene. However, this gets a pup to focus and run directly to a spot (mark)at a distance.

The key is to have the dog looking at the other person first and even headed that way. Bill calls this wishbone marks but in my eyes it didn't have anything to do with a wishbone pattern that looks like a Y. I suggested it is really a V or even a I drill. Shortest line between two points.:eek:

So to clarify. The dog is not breaking a sit-he is just wandering around. There are no Y marks-just a single for focus. It's like when you go for a walk and the pup is distant and you throw a mark for him except you have a helper! The helper is not viewed as a formal gunner in this way.

Bill even does this with advanced dogs and he also does a thing where the gunner will rethrow while pup enroute several times in order to maintain focus.

So there you have it--we don't disgaree after all with technique. It's just something that I haven't done with another person.

Gotta go train pup!!
 

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Clarification on Hillman puppy advancement.

I just spoke with Bill and better understand one of the things that he does with 4-5 month old puppies and even very advanced dogs.

With a partner the two of you go into the field and split up, each with a bumper. When the pup(dog) is distant from one person, he gets the dog coming towards him and then throws a bumper. The dog is not sitting and the gunner is not standing and shooting like in a conventional marking scene. However, this gets a pup to focus and run directly to a spot (mark)at a distance.

The key is to have the dog looking at the other person first and even headed that way. Bill calls this wishbone marks but in my eyes it didn't have anything to do with a wishbone pattern that looks like a Y. I suggested it is really a V or even a I drill. Shortest line between two points.:eek:

So to clarify. The dog is not breaking a sit-he is just wandering around. There are no Y marks-just a single for focus. It's like when you go for a walk and the pup is distant and you throw a mark for him except you have a helper! The helper is not viewed as a formal gunner in this way.

Bill even does this with advanced dogs and he also does a thing where the gunner will rethrow while pup enroute several times in order to maintain focus.

So there you have it--we don't disgaree after all with technique. It's just something that I haven't done with another person.

Gotta go train pup!!
This is exactly what I was referencing. I've been traveling, but wanted to clarify that the y drill and wishbone marks are 2 really different things. I believe the "wishbone" name comes from the fact that the 2 parties get progressively farther from one another. It really seems to develop marking without having to battle over line manners.
 

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Thank you Dennis and Charles. THat makes a whole lot more sense to me now, and I can definitely see the benefit! Thanks.
 

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Thank you Dennis and Charles. THat makes a whole lot more sense to me now, and I can definitely see the benefit! Thanks.

It's so simple, too. You wave a bumper and "hey, hey" the dog, and when it's obvious they're coming at you, you (or your helper) throw the mark.
 

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I have been reading this thread with great interest as I am now training my
2nd pup (Hawkeye's First Lady) using Bill's method and puppy training video. Getting back to the original thread topic, where does one go after Bill's puppy and fetch video? My thought is that who would be better qualified to answer the question on where to go after his puppy and new fetch video than Bill himself? So on that note, I have spoken with Bill and will be meeting with him very soon as he has agreed to share his thoughts and will post what I have learned from Bill if it is alright with Bill and the forum.

Have a safe and happy 4th of July!

John & Deb Lenon
Mama's Labs
Wildwood, MO
 

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I agree with you this idea of doing what I say when I say and not do what you want is a key to Bills puppy work. However, it behooves us to make the teachings as simple and straight forwards as possible while progressing the pup. When you start to introduce guns and gunners and birds you introduce a lot of additional stimuli and parameters in the equation for the pup to figure out. Is it reasonable for a pup to distinguish that one time I break on the throw and another time I don't when the only diff is a quiet sit? I think we're starting to push the envelope here. More importantly why do we need a dog to break on a Y drill? I'd actually prefer a lot of focus and concentration.

I am throwing out my thoughts here without having talked to Bill about this detail. Perhaps he can change my mind as I am always open to new ideas. But, based on the dogs I have it would be a challenge and I've had some real intelligent dogs!!
At what stage or age are we going to demand (might be too strong a word) some form of control as we introduce all these stimuli? Certainly introducing gunners, guns and etc. can cause mixed reactions in different pups. What would concern me if you allow some pups no control on certain marks you would have a tough time like you say reeling them in and it becomes a battle. One that I don't want! Training a 10 week old pup to retrieve is certainly going to be different training a 4 months old pup? Hopefully I have said that correctly-but what I am after is at what age or stage of dog's development do we start to demand some control at marking etc?
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I have been reading this thread with great interest as I am now training my
2nd pup (Hawkeye's First Lady) using Bill's method and puppy training video. Getting back to the original thread topic, where does one go after Bill's puppy and fetch video? My thought is that who would be better qualified to answer the question on where to go after his puppy and new fetch video than Bill himself? So on that note, I have spoken with Bill and will be meeting with him very soon as he has agreed to share his thoughts and will post what I have learned from Bill if it is alright with Bill and the forum.

Have a safe and happy 4th of July!

John & Deb Lenon
Mama's Labs
Wildwood, MO
I'm interested in this. Please post up what he says after your discussion. I would really like to hear/read his side of this!
 
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BTW, another person who trains puppies differently is Jack Vollstad from California- so if anybody has details there -let us know. OK stop lurking Melanie!!
Actually, the term I prefer is stalking. ;-):razz:

I really wish I could add some insight into Jack's puppy training but he's either 7 hours north of me in Oregon or 9 hours south of me on the CA/AZ border so I rarely see him.

I was supposed to attend a puppy seminar of his when the San Diego club held it and couldn't make it at the last minute which was such a disappointment. I'm anxiously awaiting the next one whenever that may be. I'll try and do some digging and if I can get any info on his methods, I'll be happy to post the info.

Has anyone who has used the Hillman technique not been able to resist mixing in some of the more traditional puppy training we are used to, i.e., gunners in the field throwing white bumpers? I have not put a pup through Hillman's program yet (haven't had a youngin' lately) and I'll have to admit, it might be tough for me to exclude the field marking sessions from what a pup is exposed to. I know, change is hard. :) Did it feel weird for you Dennis when you put your first pup through it?

For those of you not familiar with Bill's DVD, you need to watch it. It can not be explained on a forum. Some have done a real good job of trying in this thread, but you just can't understand it until you see it and then it may take you a while to appreciate it. It's different.
 

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Has anyone who has used the Hillman technique not been able to resist mixing in some of the more traditional puppy training we are used to, i.e., gunners in the field throwing white bumpers? I have not put a pup through Hillman's program yet (haven't had a youngin' lately) and I'll have to admit, it might be tough for me to exclude the field marking sessions from what a pup is exposed to. I know, change is hard. :) Did it feel weird for you Dennis when you put your first pup through it?
Absolutely not. I never enjoyed training a pup more. Lots and lots of field sessions-I did more days than Bill but probably shorter sessions. He was learning so many "future skills" in a smooth and subtle way. I kinda know now what things are important in the future and he was learning them without leaning any bad habits. I was not concerned with distance whatsoever because I know how easy it is so stetch them out later. I'm doing my seconf pup right now this way and it is unfolding nicely. Some things he's better some not but I just gradually seek progress and watch him get better and better. New pup is poorer at final few feet of delivery( a bit of tag!) and less prone to sit calmly and hold but his sit is even faster and his focus great on marks in all kinds of cover and water. At 5 months he'll get his gunners and birds.
 

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Melanie, your question is interesting. Note from Dennis's reply, that for a person with the experience and knowledge to really appreciate the difference in this pup program, it was not difficult to stay off the traditional stuff. It was and still is a struggle for me as a novice to avoid the temptation. I can see how it works, and I see my pup make progress. Then I just can't help but occasionally try a mark with a gun in the field. No good ever comes of it:(. I have to stick to the plan, and wait until we have completed FF and CC before we move on to the next program.
 
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