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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am trying to force fetch my dog using Bill Hillmann's The Fetch Command. My dog will hold and do ob while holding. I believes he understands fetch, as he will reach out for the bumper, leap for the bumper, and pick up the bumper off the ground when given the fetch command.

The next step on the DVD is to command fetch then give a nick as he reaches for the bumper. Yesterday I held out the bumper, gave the fetch command, then gave a nick as he was going for the bumper. When I gave him a nick he stopped and was reluctant to get the bumper. After that he wasn't wanting to get the bumper when I held it out for him, even without a nick.

Has anyone else had this issue following Hillmann's method? Looking for some advise.
 

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There is a few reason why this could happen. The most common one is that he has not been conditon to the collar vary well. ( Not knowing how to turn off the collar ) Even though I am vary reluctant on giving advice to new trainers on collar use because there is alot of timing envolved in working a collar. After a few short sesson and if he still is not understanding, turning off the collar with the fetch comand, I would go back to something that he has already been condition on and repeat it. WHAT I WOULD NOT DO, IS JUST TURN UP THE COLLAR. iF THIS DOSE NOT WORK, I WOULD SEEK OUT A GOOD PRO IN YOUR AREA.
Hope this helps
Keith
 

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[QUOTEI am trying to force fetch my dog using Bill Hillmann's The Fetch Command. My dog will hold and do ob while holding. I believes he understands fetch, as he will reach out for the bumper, leap for the bumper, and pick up the bumper off the ground when given the fetch command.

The next step on the DVD is to command fetch then give a nick as he reaches for the bumper. Yesterday I held out the bumper, gave the fetch command, then gave a nick as he was going for the bumper. When I gave him a nick he stopped and was reluctant to get the bumper. After that he wasn't wanting to get the bumper when I held it out for him, even without a nick.

Has anyone else had this issue following Hillmann's method? Looking for some advis][/QUOTE]

Did you view his puppy video. The force fetch starts in his puppy video. He uses low level continuous to start. Starting out with a nick often makes an inexperienced dog stop what their doing.

Pete
 

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I used his DVDs and did not have that issue, but I first went through the puppy training DVD with my dog. Then, after teaching the fetch command as in the Fetch Command DVD, I used the method in the puppy DVD to begin reinforcing fetch (continuous, like an ear pinch would be), then went to the fetch-nick-fetch sequence in the Fetch Command DVD after the dog knew grabbing the dummy from my hand ended the burn. Also, the dog might be put off by the nick if you did not follow the steps of the Hillmann puppy DVD, with collar conditioning to the sit command before moving to fetch. Second, maybe the dog's collar was set on too high a level for this Hillmann's method. I was only using 30-35 of 127.

I don't know why two methods of teaching fetch are in those DVDs, but you probably have to be more careful with the one in the Puppy DVD.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have been following Fowl Dawgs and have not used Hillmann's puppy DVD. I was wanting to use the fetch DVD because I heard that it was pretty easy on the dog. I have been using a very low nick. It sounds like the problem may be from not having the puppy DVD.
 

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Maybe too high of a level. Hillmann repeatidly says something like "this should barely be perceptible by the dog". i used a high 1 low or med. 2 (Tri-Tronics) on my dog (who is very sensitive).
 

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Ok, sorry, we posted at the same time. Yeah it could be the program or it could be she is just not amped up enough before the fetch/nick. Maybe try more excitement if you're not doing much before the fetch.
 

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Yesterday I held out the bumper, gave the fetch command.
I thought once you move to the Collar it's good to assist pup a session or two by going back to putting it in his mouth by hand (While you 'nick'){Like when training 'Hold'} so he understands that having it in his mouth is still what you desire.

Fetch>[low]nick/nick/nick/nick/nick/ until Pup gets bumber in his mouth(even if you have to put it there) then /Off Pressure-Praise/Remove bumber

That's how I've seen Chris Akin and Farmer/Aycock do it. After a session or two of that or when you know he understands that to turn this new pressure off I have to do the same old thing. Then you can start moving it out in front of him again.

I'm just an Ammy B-Rod, but that's the way I understand it.
 

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I had e-mailed the Hillmanns a question about if I needed to upgrade my Flyway XL to a collar with more levels of continous, as I did not know if Bill used continous in his program. With my previous two dogs, I felt I needed more levels of continous as there were too big of gaps in the six levels on the Flyway.

Mary replied........

"The collar in Bill's method of training is a series of light "nicks" and no continuous. The force fetch method shown in the puppy video is for the very experienced trainers thus we made the "Fetch Command" DVD as it's a new approach, total teaching and good universally. If you wish to see a review on the topic of the force fetch I'll be happy to send it to you; it's from Dennis Voigt and was published in his Online magazine."

So from that I gather, the Fetch DVD (I haven't seen it) is a stand alone method of FF, although having a puppy go through the Hillmann puppy program, would probably go a long way in developing the pup to learn in a "Hillmann" type way of learning.
 

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Dustin,

Hillmann's Fetch command method is a single 'nick' in the sequence Fetch - 'nick' - Fetch. But that is just one detail of many that are built upon the foundation of Hillmann's Puppy Training process.

I think Brandon has begun to realize that the attitude, the balance, the dynamic flow of every session that are hallmarks of Hillmann's method and philosophy are crucial to the implementation of his Fetch Command process.

I'm not familiar with Fowl Dogs, so I don't know how well it will transition into Hillmann's Fetch Command process. Possibly a situation that illustrates the point being made in the thread about mixing programs.

If the OP had followed Hillmann from the beginning, I would have suggestions for what he might do to overcome this minor problem ... one of my pups last year had a similar response to the early e-collar reinforcement stage of The Fetch Command. It was easy to deal with because both the pup and I had learned how to restore and maintain balance under the Hillmann methodology.

Jim
 

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Jim without the 'nicks'(plural) would you recommend he should be assisting pup get the bumper by placing it close to his mouth until pup gets the idea again, and then go with moving it farther away from him as he gets it?
 

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Jim without the 'nicks'(plural) would you recommend he should be assisting pup get the bumper by placing it close to his mouth until pup gets the idea again, and then go with moving it farther away from him as he gets it?
No. The Hillmann dynamic is different. The dog is out of balance. The dog might be afraid or confused ... without seeing it, I can't say for sure. It's clear that his dog is no longer excited about the work (the Fetch) and does not have the optimal attitude for learning. Under Hillmann's method, it is the Trainer's number one priority to maintain balance. This means that the dog is always happy, excited to do the work, focused on the trainer, etc. When attitude drops down, Hillmann has taught us the means to immediately restore a good working attitude.

So, specifically in this case, I would immediately stop applying pressure. No collar pressure until I restore the attitude that I want. I would get the pup happy and excited with breaking retrieves (fun bumpers) and probably follow that with some other skills that I know will be successful and will allow me to heap praise upon the pup. Then I would create a series of successful Fetch repetitions making use of my techniques for teasing the pup with the bumper to elicit the "Wild to Retrieve" attitude (textbook Hillmann). I would get the pup so amped up that he would be lunging to grab the bumper out of my hand. At this point I would command Fetch and the pup would be allowed to grab the bumper.

I would do several reps like this mixed in with more breaking retrieves and other obedience activities as dictated by my goals for achieving balance. Sometimes I would command to Fetch the bumper from my hand and sometimes from off the ground (varying distances from the pup). The pup is skilled, confident and excited about Fetching from the ground because of our background work in Traffic Cop training.

Finally, when I've restored a good fetch attitude and practiced it dozens of times with lots of excitement and zero pressure, I would be ready to reinforce with the e-collar again. You want to be at the point that the pup has successfully Fetched so many bumpers from your hand and off the ground that there is no question in your mind that a light 'nick' (Fetch - 'nick' - Fetch) will not interrupt him from successfully completing the Fetch. Then, when he does it, praise him and rub him with "all the enthusiasm you can muster".

Through this process, the pup's response to e-collar reinforcement will progressively improve. The e-collar should not be pushed. The pup's attitude will dictate everything ... from what you have to do to maintain balance ... to the dynamic mix of Fetch work among excitement and work on other skills and concepts ... to the percentage of Fetch's reinforced with the collar vs. Fetch's that are not reinforced with the collar.

I think Hillmann says "If you over-do something, over-do the excitement -- not the pressure."

Jim
 

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Just received my Hillman puppy video in the mail. Watched about 20 minutes of it and it's great. It was pretty easy to sneak this purchase by the wife. Just had to be first to the mailbox today. Not sure yet how I'm going to get the new pup by her!
 
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