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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Question, while teaching sit,moving around and away from pup and doing traffic cop.
Am I correct in reinforcing the "sit" verbably as needed,along with praise.
Thanks, Vinny
 

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Question, while teaching sit,moving around and away from pup and doing traffic cop.
Am I correct in reinforcing the "sit" verbably as needed,along with praise.
Thanks, Vinny
Yes. Say sit verbally, and physically go put the rascal back in place if he moves or starts to get up. Several days into the video, is a day where you hear more of what Bill is saying during the session rather than just the narration.
 

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I don't feel it's really about the words spoken. A vast majority of his processes at this age of the puppy is all about physical presence and body language. If the puppy moves, lightly pull up on the lead and make a firm step towards the dog and once the motion of sitting is in progress, then say the command. Dogs of that age regardless of how smart their owners/trainers think they are to spoke commands, truly aren't processing the verbal command to sit, they're mainly working off of the handlers body language. Hence the traffic cop operation later on in the retrieving and steadying portion.
 

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I think both Glen and Troy are correct. Bill teaches commands both verbally and with body language and gestures from a very early age.

I think Glen is referring to the sequence on Day Four, where Bill is mic'd and we can hear him repeat the verbal "sit" reinforcement.

An important point to remember is that you want to avoid corrections. If the pup is breaking the"sit" (at your current standard, which is continuously improving) without being released by you, then you have made a mistake. A few mistakes like this from time to time will happen and Bill addresses these "corrections". However, you need to revise your technique if this is happening as a regular occurrence. The goal is to reinforce success rather than to make corrections for failure.

Jim
 

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Yes, continue to reinforce the command... It's better to reinforce the command and remind him what you are doing then to have to make a correction, set the puppy up for success... I used Hillmann with my puppy and now he will sit forever, you should see great results!

I'll also echo what the other guys have said in that you need to develop some kind oof hand signals or body language to go along with the commands... That way when you start using the whistle for sit and recal you'll be able to show him it means the same thing as "sit" and "here". Also, I think it will set you up for the future when you're reinforcing commands from a distance and teaching casting... It's amazing how far a simple foundation stretches into later phases of training.
 

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Yes Say verbal sits to reinforce. I eventually worked the sit whistle in. I now just use that.
I am now working in the "here whistle.

One thing that has cropped up with my pup. When I work Hillmans routine(traffic cop) She understands wonderfully. The sit is very good.

But

Once the excitement level of the day increases, I have noticed the sit deteriorates a bit.

For example:

She is 7 months old now.. I attend training days with a group. The excitement and distraction of other dogs ,people, guns, ect ect starts to make her sit less solid. especially when I am standing next to her at the line. The lead will not be loose, but rather tight, her feeet will move. Eventually, there is going to be a need for correction...

I posted Videos in another thread of Flinch working traffic cop on the water.. Just us. She is very steady with just a whistle toot to help reinforce the sit.Even with the big splash of a large bumper thrown relatively close.. On land, I can walk about 100 yrds away, and throw a bumper, and she will sit until released. Pretty reliable.

But,, the senario changes, I am next to her,,, BBin white, the guns go off,, the sit is different.

Gooser
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the help, greatly appreciate it.


Quote:
"An important point to remember is that you want to avoid corrections. If the pup is breaking the"sit" (at your current standard, which is continuously improving) without being released by you, then you have made a mistake. A few mistakes like this from time to time will happen and Bill addresses these "corrections". However, you need to revise your technique if this is happening as a regular occurrence. The goal is to reinforce success rather than to make corrections for failure."

Jim

So,if I understand correctly, my "mistake" is that Shadow isn't really steady enough( at the current level) to sit as long as I am expecting? i.e. She's just not there yet? Too many verbal "sits" for correction may lead to sit,sit,sit in stead of what we're looking for,"Sit means Sit"
Vinny
 

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One thing that has cropped up with my pup. When I work Hillmans routine(traffic cop) She understands wonderfully. The sit is very good.

But

Once the excitement level of the day increases, I have noticed the sit deteriorates a bit.

For example:

She is 7 months old now.. I attend training days with a group. The excitement and distraction of other dogs ,people, guns, ect ect starts to make her sit less solid. especially when I am standing next to her at the line. The lead will not be loose, but rather tight, her feeet will move. Eventually, there is going to be a need for correction...

I posted Videos in another thread of Flinch working traffic cop on the water.. Just us. She is very steady with just a whistle toot to help reinforce the sit.Even with the big splash of a large bumper thrown relatively close.. On land, I can walk about 100 yrds away, and throw a bumper, and she will sit until released. Pretty reliable.

But,, the senario changes, I am next to her,,, BBin white, the guns go off,, the sit is different.

Gooser
Gooser,

Have you seen Hillmann's Traffic Cop DVD? Traffic Cop is about teching a dog to be motionless at the most extreme level distractions found in hunting, hunt tests and trials.

Also, I'm curious, why would the lead not be loose when you are running your dog?


So,if I understand correctly, my "mistake" is that Shadow isn't really steady enough( at the current level) to sit as long as I am expecting? i.e. She's just not there yet? Too many verbal "sits" for correction may lead to sit,sit,sit in stead of what we're looking for,"Sit means Sit"
Vinny
Vinny,

Hillmann's 4-stage process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k7zem-kS-o&feature=relmfu
  1. Teach
  2. Praise and Reward
  3. Reinforce with the e-collar
  4. Practice (repetition)

The approach is the same with all commands.

Repeating "Sit ... Sit ... Sit ..." as reinforcement while the dog successfully continues to maintain the sit standard is part of Hillmann's process. It is not the same as making a correction when the pup fails to maintain the standard.

Hillmann advocates reinforcement of success over correction or punishment for failure. So, if you repeatedly have to deal with failure, then you need to step back and take a look at what you are doing wrong in following Hillmann's methods.

Jim
 

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Ive got Hillmans puppy dvd. My puppy isnt catching on to the sit/long sit very well. He will sit when i tell him too and lately when ive been working on him to stay in that position he will lay down and start chewing on a sprig of grass or something. Also should i be using a choke collar when doing this? It looks like he uses one in his video?
 

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Ive got Hillmans puppy dvd. My puppy isnt catching on to the sit/long sit very well. He will sit when i tell him too and lately when ive been working on him to stay in that position he will lay down and start chewing on a sprig of grass or something. Also should i be using a choke collar when doing this? It looks like he uses one in his video?
With a 12-week old pup you can not expect that he will have the ability to stay focused on a single task for any length of time. Hillmann's method takes this into account by constantly changing back and forth between excitement (chasing, breaking retrieves) and obedience (sit and walking on a line). Balance.

At this young age you should be creating a very high percentage of successful outcomes by requiring only what you are confident is within your pup's capability. Don't make Trooper sit very long before giving praise. Then, immediately release him to do something else ... either a breaking retrieve if his attitude is down or his energy is waning ... or some walking on a line if he is exhibiting too much excitement or if his focus is bouncing around from one distraction to another. The laying down to chew grass sounds to me like loss of focus, boredom or fatigue. Beyond this young pup's capability. Another possibility is that you are applying too much pressure (either physical or emotional) and he is expressing avoidance. Before you allow this to happen you need to get him excited and get his attitude up so that he is capable of focusing and learning. Then, you need to stay closer, reinforce and praise with touch so that he learns to stay focused on you.

It is better to praise, reward and then release him from the successful completion of a sit command (of short duration) than to develop a pattern of failures where he breaks your current sit standard.

The sit standard that you are developing should advance in very small and subtle increments. Before advancing to a higher standard of sit, your pup needs to be reliable and solid on the current standard. This involves lots and lots of successful repetitions. There is no timeframe.

Try not to be in a hurry. Haste and impatience today will delay the attainment of your long-term objectives.

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks Jim

Your responses have been very helpful,along with the others. The last 2 really straightened me out.
I've been trying to do a LITTLE training during Shadows recovery. Another week or so and she will be ready to
continue Hillmanns properly.
Here she is 4 wks after surgery.
 

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