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Often there is a specific trigger to disobedience either in the holding blind
or walking to the line.

For some retrievers, the first trigger is removing the collar the instant the dog hears "Guns Up!.
Instead, remove a slip lead as the running dog is returning with the last bird.
Maintain eye contact and step back with the traffic cop signal.

The retriever must silently wait, maintaining eye contact until released by the handler.
The first movement from the retriever is away from the line to the handler.
Thus the first movement is of obedience to recall rather than the disobedient
retriever "leading the parade" surging to the line.

A second trigger to disobedience is repeating the heel command.
In group training with holding blinds, the routine is typically
heel, dog surges ahead, heel with nick or stick, the dog then comes into compliance.
At an event, the same routine, except the dog hears, heel, heel!, HEEL! with no usual correction.
An easy way to teach a retriever to be test-wise is
the contrast between consistent heel-correction in training and repeating heel, Heel, HEEL! at an event.
One approach is to use silent backwards heeling in training and at an event to maintain control.
I noticed Lardy had some handlers doing this in the Farmer/Lardy DVD.

A third trigger to disobedience is the mat or line itself.
Retrievers quickly learn that is where the fun starts so they naturally "lead the parade" to the mat.
To counter this tendency,some trainers occasionally run their marks behind the mat in training or
even throw a mark as the retriever is perfectly heeling from the holding blind halfway to the mat.
 

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And for some, the trigger is the act of getting out of the vehicle. :)

Silent heeling is great. I like it. Walk with the dog at heel, flipping multiple bumpers. The dog sits or stops forward movement at every throw. No command needed - no matter how far I walk. I may release for retrieve or I may command 'heel' .

I know multiple people who can't get their dogs from the truck to even the first holding blind without a tab or e collar transmitter in their hand. Silence forces the dog to pay literal attn to you rather than 'auditory' attn.

triggers are an interesting 'beast'.
 

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MissSkeeter and Tobias

Excellent comments on holding blind/line obedience.
 

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Scenario

handler has dog on lead and choke chain or slip collar, sitting at heel. Handler takes a step forward commanding 'heel' and they walk forward to gether. Dog gets to a point where his butt is even with handler's leg. Handler slows down (unconciously) and commands 'heel' and jerks the dog back into position. When dog is back in position handler says 'good' and returns to previous pace...dog goes forward again. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.
 

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You are only kidding yourself with bumpers. At least use birds. I agree with #1
 

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Best tip I've gotten: Sit pup with his back to the holding blind looking at me. When called to the line, wait a few seconds then step away from the blind, stop and call pup to heel. Seems to keep pup guessing as to what's next. In training I may go back and forth to the holding blind several times before going to the line. Has even helped settle down my 10 year old firebreather.
 

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Scenario

handler has dog on lead and choke chain or slip collar, sitting at heel. Handler takes a step forward commanding 'heel' and they walk forward to gether. Dog gets to a point where his butt is even with handler's leg. Handler slows down (unconciously) and commands 'heel' and jerks the dog back into position. When dog is back in position handler says 'good' and returns to previous pace...dog goes forward again. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.
Just for kicks ;)
and just supposing that dogs learn cognitively', if one was to rinse and repeat over and over would this not result in the dog continually doing the same ? :D
Scenario
Handler walks and the dog walks at heel with no command and remains at heel even when the pace is changed,when the handler stops the dog sits with no command ,when the dog achieves this level in all environments then it has learned Heel and Sit. Coz' Heel is Heel and Sit is Sit. lol
btw, Why would there be a requirement for a verbal command in the process anyway,if other tools such as body movement,lead/collar/choke chain and physical jerk/correction and 'Touch/Praise' were all available in that process ? :p
Happy New Year Juli.
Regards
Robt.
 

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Just for kicks ;)
and just supposing that dogs learn cognitively', if one was to rinse and repeat over and over would this not result in the dog continually doing the same ? :D
Scenario
Handler walks and the dog walks at heel with no command and remains at heel even when the pace is changed,when the handler stops the dog sits with no command ,when the dog achieves this level in all environments then it has learned Heel and Sit. Coz' Heel is Heel and Sit is Sit. lol
btw, Why would there be a requirement for a verbal command in the process anyway,if other tools such as body movement,lead/collar/choke chain and physical jerk/correction and 'Touch/Praise' were all available in that process ? :p
Happy New Year Juli.
Regards
Robt.

And to you Robert! You will be celebrating it a few hours before us! :)
 

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Well kwick how come these line failures end up as a NFC ? The judge who threw one out, before a bird, (saw it) said later he was tired of penalizing dogs out in the field but up close...give them a pass?
 

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"Well, Kwick how come these line failures end up as a NFC ? The judge who threw one out, before a bird, (saw it) said
later he was tired of penalizing dogs out in the field but up close...give them a pass?"


Well, for a moment, I did not have the answer to your question (in that particular reference). However, if one were to shift
to the other end of the spectrum, I have seen judges pass Junior level dogs that literally dragged their trainer to the line
after a handlers' meeting where it was stated this behavior would be a failure. Philosophically what is the difference? The
only difference between our posts is pelts.

I do think you validated my two points 1) line manners are a function of the trainer and 2) some know it is not just the dog.
The final result at times becomes a philosophical choice driven by emotions rather than rules. .

Maybe this field trial judge (on that particular day) was tired of blaming the dog "this one time" and penalized the trainer.
Actually, that is what you said he did. Apparently, many others looked the other way on several other occasions.
 

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The real problem here, folks - is asking a dog to do brain surgery when it has little idea how to use a scalpel.

You're asking a dog to be calm and behave properly in it's absolute highest state of excitement and trying to address the failure with the dog when they are in that context/state. You'll find this largely unproductive and most people do.

This stuff is addressed long before putting a dog into that context and in early training - when giving the dog retrieves - expectations are kept to within what the dog is ready for.

If your dog is nuts in the holding blind or on the way to the line, you might want to think about backing up, addressing the issues away from that context, then taking their newly learned skills ot the holding blind with you.

I'd also mention that reducing the conflict between you and the dog, not sweating the details so much, simplifying the entire exercise and making sure any corrections you do use are CLEAR will go a long way to help out here.

Most important though - work on this in a less distracting/stimulating/exciting environment before you expect good behavior in full on retrieve mode.

Just to make sure people really think I'm nuts ;) a pocket full of hot dogs might be a big help ;)
 

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Often there is a specific trigger to disobedience either in the holding blind
or walking to the line.

For some retrievers, the first trigger is removing the collar the instant the dog hears "Guns Up!.
Instead, remove a slip lead as the running dog is returning with the last bird.
Maintain eye contact and step back with the traffic cop signal.

The retriever must silently wait, maintaining eye contact until released by the handler.
The first movement from the retriever is away from the line to the handler.
Thus the first movement is of obedience to recall rather than the disobedient
retriever "leading the parade" surging to the line.

A second trigger to disobedience is repeating the heel command.
In group training with holding blinds, the routine is typically
heel, dog surges ahead, heel with nick or stick, the dog then comes into compliance.
At an event, the same routine, except the dog hears, heel, heel!, HEEL! with no usual correction.
An easy way to teach a retriever to be test-wise is
the contrast between consistent heel-correction in training and repeating heel, Heel, HEEL! at an event.
One approach is to use silent backwards heeling in training and at an event to maintain control.
I noticed Lardy had some handlers doing this in the Farmer/Lardy DVD.

A third trigger to disobedience is the mat or line itself.
Retrievers quickly learn that is where the fun starts so they naturally "lead the parade" to the mat.
To counter this tendency,some trainers occasionally run their marks behind the mat in training or
even throw a mark as the retriever is perfectly heeling from the holding blind halfway to the mat.
When you have one or all of those triggers it's called a 'Clusterf**ck' .
For the purposes of the thread ,you then get 'Divergence' ..them that say what should have been done,them that say what you should do,them that defend other triggers ,them that say one trigger is tolerable ,them that quote others who have titles,them that agree with their mates,them that don't agree because they are not mates,and them that start talking about something different .
It's simple basic obedience. If the dog don't do A then you don't do B. When the dog can do A&B you can do C. ..When A,B,C and D is accomplished ,then the dog can go get the bird...When the dog was born it was 100% perfect "That's not for some retrievers,that's for all retrievers" ...MissSkeeter. (disclaimer- assuming we are talking about a healthy dog with no medical issues ..and assuming we are talking about those well bred dogs that an owner on here would have) . :cool:
 
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