[captain2560]

Hypothetical situation, Derby series one and two. Single flyer with holding blind (dead bird double were in holding blinds). Then flyer retires to holding blind while double is shot. All blinds visible to the dogs field of view. Judges were informed this was illegal but proceeded anyway. Rule is on page 30 paragraph 8 last line in paragraph. Any discussion about this scenario? Discussion is for new people benefit, so they understand the rule.

 

[Daren Galloway]

I shut a Q down at my club for violating this rule, after a ft committee meeting. Ft committee should've stepped in in your example.

 

[Sabireley]

Can’t do it, but I have seen it done in a derby as well. A double double where they hid the second double while the first was being run.

 

[EdA]

What if the “holding blind(s)“ are brushed up and do not look like holding blinds?

 

[captain2560]

For discussion sake let's say the blinds are not brushed and there are no other trees or bushes in the dogs field of vision. All blinds are in the dogs field of vision when on the mat for 1 st bird which is a single flyer.

 

[EdA]

Using that parameter it is clearly illegal

“Retired Guns and throwers should be concealed by a blind that provides complete coverage, adequate space, and natural camouflage to conceal the distinctive shape of the blind and in no event shall gunners or throwers be instructed to lay down on the ground in layout blinds or like configurations for hiding purposes. The blind must be so located as to minimize the development of a trail that will lead the running dog away from the area of the fall. In no circumstances should the judges have the guns move to another position to mislead dogs in their marking. No blinds shall be placed in the field in a marking test except in accordance with the provisions set forth in this paragraph or for the purpose of protecting the running dogs from injury by unseen hazards”

For the sake of argument what if the single is at 9 o’clock and the double is at 2 to 4 o’clock. What boundaries constitute “the field”?

 

[captain2560]

When all three holding blinds are within a 100° field of view approximately, say if mat is facing 12 o'clock and all blinds are visible from 9 to 2. That's the parameter I'm talking about. Within the dogs field of view when sitting on the mat.

 

[EdA]

When all three holding blinds are within a 100° field of view approximately, say if mat is facing 12 o'clock and all blinds are visible from 9 to 2. That's the parameter I'm talking about. Within the dogs field of view when sitting on the mat.

I think that is illegal and violates the rule and the spirit of the rule which is to prevent deception in marking tests.

 

[HarryWilliams]

I think the issue is do the blinds distract the dogs attention. Are they clearly in view.

Terrain could help conceal. Dogs should be facing opposite directions.

I wish not to comment specifically on an actual test setup as I did not see it.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Can’t do it, but I have seen it done in a derby as well. A double double where they hid the second double while the first was being run.

Why was it done? Did they think they were saving time?

 

[captain2560]

I'm this hypothetical situation I'm assuming so

 

[Sabireley]

Why was it done? Did they think they were saving time?

I think they thought it would save time. I was new at the time so didn’t think much of it, until this thread.

 

[EdA]

Minor stake judges always deal with the issue of running dogs not wasting time waiting on pros so the objective is to get them there and run 2 series. That saves time, sometimes lots of time.

 

[Casey Adams]

This is a rule that should just go away then there won’t be any hypothetical to worry about. If my dog can’t go get a single flyer then come
Back and see two white coats in the field, those guns stay out for the test with flyer behind a blind then I’m not worried if the test was legal I’m worried how much training I need before I come back. This type of rule is why the book needs an overhaul, many times derbies get late starts and getting two test is a benefit to be able to get to the water with time and actually test them. If the two test are separated there should be no issue with this test, dogs should be able to handle this.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

If the two test are separated there should be no issue with this test, dogs should be able to handle this.

If the two test are separated it isn't a rule violation.

If your dog is seeing throwers for the next test while returning from a mark, the tests aren't "separated" or the dog is lost.

I would also say the club had a lot more help than the average event.

 

[EdA]

This type of rule is why the book needs an overhaul

The Rules have been amended many times generally making things murkier. I agree the rule book needs a makeover but it has since before you were born and is unlikely to get better in my lifetime or yours so we just adapt and learn to deal with it. The genesis for the rule about holding blinds in the field was born due to a National Amateur test. The rule makers didn’t like that test so they made it illegal to have holding blinds in the field for marking tests unless they are part of the test.

 

[captain2560]

This is a rule that should just go away then there won’t be any hypothetical to worry about. If my dog can’t go get a single flyer then come
Back and see two white coats in the field, those guns stay out for the test with flyer behind a blind then I’m not worried if the test was legal I’m worried how much training I need before I come back. This type of rule is why the book needs an overhaul, many times derbies get late starts and getting two test is a benefit to be able to get to the water with time and actually test them. If the two test are separated there should be no issue with this test, dogs should be able to handle this.

Casey, this was 3 bare holding blind within a 80°arc or field of view to the dog when on the mat. The blinds|were not wrapped to prevent the dog from seeing a gunner when deep of a mark. If the test are separated where dog can't easily see holding blind that conceals gunner, no problem. It is in the rule book, you can't pick and choose which rule you like or don't like. I personally don't like the mandatory honoring rule as I think the dog can get too hot while rebird or no birds are occurring but I will adhere to the rule. I may do a cold honor if it's hot and I'm worried about the dogs.

 

[Casey Adams]

Casey, this was 3 bare holding blind within a 80°arc or field of view to the dog when on the mat. The blinds|were not wrapped to prevent the dog from seeing a gunner when deep of a mark. If the test are separated where dog can't easily see holding blind that conceals gunner, no problem. It is in the rule book, you can't pick and choose which rule you like or don't like. I personally don't like the mandatory honoring rule as I think the dog can get too hot while rebird or no birds are occurring but I will adhere to the rule. I may do a cold honor if it's hot and I'm worried about the dogs.

Brooks I think one is entitled to pick which rules they like and don’t like and can speak about why. Doesn’t mean I won’t follow them just means I say I don’t like the rule. I agree the guns should be wrapped in this situation but to be honest if it’s a single and a double with the white coats out for the retrieve I still don’t have an issue with it as the gunner is sitting there. If they were retired and open to pull a dog off the mark that’s a bigger issue.

 

[Loran Marmes (JR)]

Hypothetical situation, Derby series one and two. Single flyer with holding blind (dead bird double were in holding blinds). Then flyer retires to holding blind while double is shot. All blinds visible to the dogs field of view. Judges were informed this was illegal but proceeded anyway. Rule is on page 30 paragraph 8 last line in paragraph. Any discussion about this scenario? Discussion is for new people benefit, so they understand the rule.

absolutely illegal