RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Master test. Triple on land. blind up the middle. Orange stake to give you point of reference. Handlers are told to handle to the orange stake. at that point there has been a trail dragged aprox 10-12 feet off to the left of the orange stake. Handlers are told that once you get to the orange stake to release your dog to trail the cripple. You can say fetch it up, hunt it up, ect.

My question as a judge. is say I handle to the stake great 2 cast and I am on it. I have a 8-9. I have sat my dog and said fetch it up. and the dog goes wild. does not pick up on the trail and is all over the place, now I have to handle back to the area, and to the actual bird.

I watched 40+ dogs run this blind. And I don't think 2 dogs did the same thing. There where handlers that handled directly to the bird. some dogs would not release on hunt it up and had to be casted over, ect.

So with out a standard to score by, how would you judge?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
how would you judge this

:) I would hope that this is why we have hunting dogs. Let them use their nose.

A bird in the mouth :roll: :roll: is worth 2 in the bush.

Unless the dog was completely out of control or came back to the handler I would pass him.

If you got him to the blind in good shape, do whatever YOU have to do to help him.

I think I remember somewhere that dog & handler are supposed to be a team. :) :)

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,686 Posts
all though it is useful and necessary in a hunting dog, I have never heard of a trailing requirement in an AKC hunt test. Test a dogs nose when he gets to the area of the fall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,345 Posts
I do think there is mention that a "trailing test" can be done in the regulation book.

I would like to know more about how this trailing test was set up. Like did they drag a fresh bird for each blind that was set? If not then the trail could lose some of its effectiveness after a period of time and after a few dogs travelled through the area with their scent. If they did, how did they insure that new new drag scents were not created as the blind planter did his job.? Also what if the dog picked up dragback scent from one or more of the previous retrieves?

I think one of the reasons we don't normally see trailing tests in our scenarios is that the scenting area can not be controlled enough to make it fair for everyone, thus making the job of judging each dog fairly more difficult.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I agree that this is why we have hunting dogs, and as a judge I always look for a dog that honers his nose. And My dog did very well on this. However the question is how to judge it.

The trail was dragged every 10 dogs. By the judge.

Unless the dog was completely out of control or came back to the handler I would pass him.
This is AKC. You should be giving a score not just pass or fail.

I ran a couple NAHRA test and I have run trailing test in UKC I don't have a problem with a trailing test. But at the end of a blind? what I had seen in Nahra and HRC was start them from your side show them a pile of feathers and tell them to hunt it up and they should trail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,345 Posts
Does seem an odd way to run a blind....and if the judge dragged the bird didn't that take a lot of time to have him/her get out there and back?

Also was wind not a factor? because I can see the possibility of swirling scent coming in to play or a dog winding one of the other fall area or a bird boy bucket....just too many unforseen variables for me to be happy putting in it a test I was judging.

I don't know how it should be judged. I think I would tend to judge getting the dog to the blind stake as running the blind and give a score for that....trainability etc.... then have a separate score if the dog found the bird by following his nose - 10 if he did it with no handles, 5 if he had to have help, and 0 or 1 if he ran about wildly and stumbled on the bird, with no indication of winding it. If you have to handle all the way too the bird, then is that trailing? Probably not...so "0"?

My understanding of a good trailing test is that the scent line makes several sharp turns along the way and the dog is scored on how quickly he pickes up on the trail again once the direction has changed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,908 Posts
I would recommend these judges go back and read part 1 of the guidelines. I has many sections that would apply here.

On blind retrieves, wherever possible, the Judges
shall plan their hunting situations taking advantage of
hazards, such as islands, decoys, points of land, sandbars,
ditches, hedges, small bushes, adjacent heavy cover, and
rolling terrain. Despite such natural distractions, it shall
be possible for a dog to find a well-planned blind-retrieve
on the initial line from its handler; that it will do so is highly
improbable because of those natural hazards, so it must
be handled to the blind. The hunting situation should be
planned so that the dog should be in sight continuously.
A blind retrieve is a test of Trainability (control,
response).
A dog that is out-of-sight for a considerable
period cannot be said to be under control. Utilizing natural
hazards provides better opportunity to evaluate the
abilities required of a superb Retriever.
but
remember, complicated or unnatural tests very often prove
nothing and consume great amounts of time and expense.
Clarity in explaining test objectives shall minimize
questions.
Consider, also, the amount of time consumed by these
elements, and ask yourself what they are testing, and
I would not set this up in a test.


/Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,623 Posts
In the SE....years ago these were relatively common in NAHRA Senior. As I recall, until AKC took "Nose" out as a unique judging category, they were even seen in AKC Master from time to time.

Eric
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
401 Posts
I would have brought up the test setup to the hunt test commitee and requested that the commitee review the rule book and determine that the judging of the trail not be allowed. The dogs only should be judged to the stake and not on the trail. I do hunt and would expect my dogs to fine the bird. This is a scored blind in a test, not a scored blind/trailing test.

scott
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,564 Posts
Trails off of marks and blinds were common place for a period of time within NAHRA. There was also lots of other CUTE stuff that went on. It was fun BUT did not lend itself to clear judging. The NAHRA rules were changed to NOT allow a trail off of a mark or a blind. This took care of the ambiguity. It is a scenario that you can come across while hunting. But testing is not hunting.

A trailing test has it's challenges in itself without adding it to another set of skills being tested. Testing trailing would be easier if scent had a color and could be seen.

I'd like to have seen an AKC rep's reaction to that one.

I like good, tough straight forward tests that a dog can demonstrate their skills and talent. Cute is for the tailgate party.

A side effect of training for this could be that your dog will start hunting the end of your blinds. HPW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
I've set up similar tests at fun trials. Pretty much just a pass-fail series. All the dogs passed. It was fun to see the handlers get nervous, and then realize that the dogs noses worked just fine.

I don't think it has a place in AKC FTs or HTs.


John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
That's what I'm thinking Paul. Get to the stick, cast to the bird with a little added wiggle of the arm or scratch my behind with the other hand and swear that's my "hunt it up" command.

Let em judge it.

Jerry
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,252 Posts
HarryWilliams said:
A side effect of training for this could be that your dog will start hunting the end of your blinds. HPW
Thank you Harry! I was wondering why judges would set up a thing that so many of us have worked hard to teach our dogs NOT to do, hunt em up at the end of a blind. Of course it's a realistic hunting scenario but I thought blinds were about training and control, not instincts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,637 Posts
Kate would loved a "blind" like this :wink: , but I would scratch my current dog before I'd let him think that the end of the blind is where he's driving & I'm out of the picture.

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,426 Posts
Gun_Dog2002 said:
So lets say you handle your dog to the stick. Then sit the dog and handle it to the bird from there? How would or did the judges handle that?

/Paul
What's the purpose? Might as well extend the stick out to the bird. Handling a dog to a bird is not trailing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,908 Posts
kjrice said:
Gun_Dog2002 said:
So lets say you handle your dog to the stick. Then sit the dog and handle it to the bird from there? How would or did the judges handle that?

/Paul
What's the purpose? Might as well extend the stick out to the bird. Handling a dog to a bird is not trailing.
I agree. AKC does not incorporate trailing in the standard. So how in the world would this be judged according to the standard?

/Paul
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top