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Another thread got me wondering.....

If you are watching a training video, unless they flat out tell you what method they have adopted, meaning, they followed the training style of Lardy or Hillman or someone else that I don't know, how do you know? For instance, I like the Fowl Dawgs series, who's method is Rick using, his own? What about Aycock/Farmer, do they have their own method. Everyone has their own style, but the foundation had to have been set by someone, so how do you know? I guess if you are familar with the foundational teachings you would be able to spot it, but if you aren't then how do you know? I noticed that if I post a quesiton about collar conditioning or force fetch, everyone asks first, who's program are you using or following, I really don't know.

For my profession there are two standard methods or teachings for what we do, we have the Reed or WZ. When you sit with someone who is using a particular method, by their style and approach, I can tell you what method they are using, typically. Sometimes there is a hybrid, a mixture of both. But out of a department with 25 individuals all using the WZ who are familar with Reed, each one of us has designed their own "style" using WZ as their foundation.

So is this how people approach training and their methods? If so, I still don't know what method I am using.
 

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Just ask them. Some pros stick to their tried and true program and never change a lick and some are constantly evolving their programs. They gather the best of what they see over the years and incorporate it into their customized program or what works best for them/their dogs.
 

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I would say that generally most are using the "Carr method" in each of their respective programs. Each program could be modified to some degree making it "his" program, but the methodolgy is typaclly Carr based.

Judy learned from Rex and she taught Danny.
 

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What is WZ vs. Reed? Curious.

JS
 

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I would go watch them train a dog---preferably someone else's dog before they get your dog.
 

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Another thread got me wondering.....

If you are watching a training video, unless they flat out tell you what method they have adopted, meaning, they followed the training style of Lardy or Hillman or someone else that I don't know, how do you know? For instance, I like the Fowl Dawgs series, who's method is Rick using, his own? What about Aycock/Farmer, do they have their own method. Everyone has their own style, but the foundation had to have been set by someone, so how do you know? I guess if you are familar with the foundational teachings you would be able to spot it, but if you aren't then how do you know? I noticed that if I post a quesiton about collar conditioning or force fetch, everyone asks first, who's program are you using or following, I really don't know.

For my profession there are two standard methods or teachings for what we do, we have the Reed or WZ. When you sit with someone who is using a particular method, by their style and approach, I can tell you what method they are using, typically. Sometimes there is a hybrid, a mixture of both. But out of a department with 25 individuals all using the WZ who are familar with Reed, each one of us has designed their own "style" using WZ as their foundation.

So is this how people approach training and their methods? If so, I still don't know what method I am using.
In my opinion there are many different methods used in training. Great trainers like Rex Carr are able to change the dogs behavior and they know what worked for one dog may not work for another dog. Great trainers know how much pressure to use, when to use pressure or not, their timing of when and how to correct. Dogs are great anticipaters, they know how to read a dog. This is what Rorem is talking about when he says the Art of training. The great dog people out there have a knack for working with these wonderful animals, they know how to change the dogs behavior. Instead of talking a dog out of a bird they talk the dog into the bird, their communication and timing is what they are striving for, when to blow the whistle during a water blind to get the perfect cast. Rex Carr developed Drills to enhance the communication between the trainer and dog and a way of teaching through the use of these drills. Great trainers have perfected this and have acheived the art by working with many many dogs. To get back to your question, these trainers have a proven program that they follow. I guess you could call it a method. But every dog is different and problems will happen during a dogs training. It's how the trainer goes about solving these problems or changing the dogs behavior while keeping the dogs focus and momentum. This is what I mean by the art of training. Where most trainers fall short is they are mechanical trainers and have not developed the art. And by methods do you mean philosophy? To me great trainers share the same philosophy of treating dogs with respect and walking in their shoes, the trainer thinks like a dog. The trainer uses methods to train a dog that has confidence and style. I think most trainers share that philosophy.
 

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OK! So I would not want to be alone with you in a room with a big glass wall???? :shock: :p :razz:

Thanks.

JS
 

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WZ and Reed are methods used for Interview and Interrogation. Most Law Enforcement Agencies will adopt the Reed method, while private sector investigators use the WZ method. The goals are the same, but obtaining those goals are a bit different in some respects.
which method was being used in Basic Instinct during the Sharon Stone interrogation ?
 

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If you can identify a trainer's "method" by watching him work a few dogs, he/she is not a very good trainer!

A good trainer trains the dog that is beside him and adapts the application of his principles accordingly. Individual dogs differ and what you see won't necessarily be the same with each dog.

JS
 

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If you can identify a trainer's "method" by watching him work a few dogs, he/she is not a very good trainer!

A good trainer trains the dog that is beside him and adapts the application of his principles accordingly. Individual dogs differ and what you see won't necessarily be the same with each dog.

JS
I don't agree with this. I think there are LOTS of trainers who use a cookie cutter approach. Sure, they may vary their presssure, slightly, but it's evident in the demeanor of the dogs. You'll see the same trainers pulling dogs off trucks at hunting tests and field trials. Some dogs walk to the line excited, some indifferent, and some slink to the line with their tails between their legs because they're too terrified to NOT do the work. Also, if trainers truly adapted their methods, there wouldn't be washouts that then went to other trainers and became well-adjusted, high-performing dogs.

As for everyone using Rex Carr's methods, that's not entirely true. For instance, I have a friend who is a highly successful trainer and who trained with Rex Carr for several months. Yet, her methods are nothing like those used by Judy Aycock. The concepts are essentially the same but the ways of getting there are completely dissimilar.
 

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I don't agree with this. I think there are LOTS of trainers who use a cookie cutter approach. Sure, they may vary their presssure, slightly, but it's evident in the demeanor of the dogs. You'll see the same trainers pulling dogs off trucks at hunting tests and field trials. Some dogs walk to the line excited, some indifferent, and some slink to the line with their tails between their legs because they're too terrified to NOT do the work. Also, if trainers truly adapted their methods, there wouldn't be washouts that then went to other trainers and became well-adjust, high-performing dogs.

As for everyone using Rex Carr's methods, that's not entirely true. For instance, I have a friend who is a highly successful trainer and who trained with Rex Carr for several months. Yet, her methods are nothing like those used by Judy Aycock. The concepts are essentially the same but the ways of getting there are completely dissimilar.
I'm not sure what you don't agree with.

As I read the rest of your comments, you make my point. Those trainers who use a "cookie cutter approach" to all their dogs, without modifying and adapting the principles of their "method" to each dog, are not getting the most out of each dog. Hence, you see what you describe in their dogs.

Maybe I went a bit over the top to say "they are not very good trainers" ... should have said, "they are not the best trainers".

Regarding washouts who move on and do better with someone else, there are a multitude of reasons for that. And it's not always because the original trainer was not a "good" trainer. That's a topic for a thread of it's own.

JS
 

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Its technically a "based" program...ALOT of programs are Carr based. They probably are not identical.
 

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As for everyone using Rex Carr's methods, that's not entirely true. For instance, I have a friend who is a highly successful trainer and who trained with Rex Carr for several months. Yet, her methods are nothing like those used by Judy Aycock. The concepts are essentially the same but the ways of getting there are completely dissimilar.
I know/knew a few of the original Rex Carr students and none of them train the same way, Judy took what she learned and made it her own and took things to a whole new level...trainers like her,Dana ,Delma and to some extent even Lanse took what they learned from Rex and integrated it in their methods and used what was useful and discarded what was not...
 

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Its technically a "based" program...ALOT of programs are Carr based. They probably are not identical.
I think most trainers evolve and tweak the Rex Carr method to what works for them, as far as how much pressure or attrition is used, but the basics foundation is not changed. Better trainers are able to change up the application of teaching for the immature dog, the non-compliant dog, the average dog who reaches plateaus, and the extremely talented dog pressure with the goal of achieving balance. I want to hear that this is done routinely, and not one fit for all. IMHO, those trainers have not evolved themselves, and are not able to recognize how to train different dogs. Those dogs may wash out if there is too much pressure which happens often. There are a lot of bad trainers out there. There is no test to pass to hang out your shingle and say you are a pro. ASK the trainer who his methods are based on, who taught him the methods or who he apprenticed under. If he hems and haws, maybe he does hit or miss, but I think that most successful modern trains use Rex Carr based methods and who they study under leads back to Carr.
 
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