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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
There is a little side topic on the "Sending Your Dog on a blind" thread about the difference between using voice on a cast versus a silent cast. This brings a smile to my eyes as it makes me remember the episode that made it totally clear to me when to use each. Back in 1994 I had my first field trial Golden, Cody the dog in my avatar. I had been in the hunt test game a couple years, had breezed through AKC Junior and Senior as well as NAHRA Started and Intermediate and was just starting AKC Master, so was pretty well schooled in the amateur training methods of the day at least what was typical for hunt test guys. Those days in hunt test almost every cast was a big booming "Back" or "Over" and blinds were more about force than finesse. That changed when I started field trial training with Eric Fangsrud who was all about finesse.

That brings me to the funny story of the first time I was handling Cody on a land blind after he had been with Eric for a whole winter down south. Eric is an excellent handler coach, it's his goal to teach people how to handle their own dogs in all stakes. Anyway Eric is standing behind me as a launch Cody on the blind. In short order Cody veers offline to the left, not a lot, but definite left of line momentum, Eric calmly says "handle" and I blow a sit whistle, Cody spins on a dime and sits, eyes boreing into me. Eric says "straight right Slam-it Back", so I raise my right arm and yell "back". Cody blasts off even harder left and Eric yells "Handle". Again I blow the whistle and Cody sits. Eric says, louder this time, "Right angle Slam-it Back", so I do an angle cast and yell louder "Back". Cody jumps hard left, really digging in when Eric steps in front of me and takes over, easing Cody back right with soft, easy silent cast.

After the dust settled Eric asks me what the H*** I was thinking? I told him I thought "Slam-it Back" meant a loud vocal cast. Eric just cracked up and said he was saying "Silent Back" not Slam-it Back. He then explained to me how and when we use silent cast (most of the time) versus voice cast. In easy terms, if you want to change momentum, use a silent cast, if you need to reinforce momentum, such as a dog on line but breaking down, use voice. This was a valuable lesson that I learned in the most clear cut manner early on. Just thought I'd share.

John
 

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John,

Thanks for the post. It clarified something for me that I was thinking about from last night's training session with my dog. I was questioning in my own mind when to use a vocal command and when not to. This helped.
 

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There is a little side topic on the "Sending Your Dog on a blind" thread about the difference between using voice on a cast versus a silent cast. This brings a smile to my eyes as it makes me remember the episode that made it totally clear to me when to use each. Back in 1994 I had my first field trial Golden, Cody the dog in my avatar. I had been in the hunt test game a couple years, had breezed through AKC Junior and Senior as well as NAHRA Started and Intermediate and was just starting AKC Master, so was pretty well schooled in the amateur training methods of the day at least what was typical for hunt test guys. Those days in hunt test almost every cast was a big booming "Back" or "Over" and blinds were more about force than finesse. That changed when I started field trial training with Eric Fangsrud who was all about finesse.

That brings me to the first time I was handling Cody on a land blind after he had been with Eric for a whole winter down south. Eric is an excellent handler coach, it's his goal to teach people how to handle their own dogs in all stakes. Anyway Eric is standing behind me as a launch Cody on the blind. In short order Cody veers offline to the left, not a lot, but definite left of line momentum, Eric calmly says "handle" and I blow a sit whistle, Cody spins on a dime and sits, eyes boreing into me. Eric say "straight right Slam-it Back", so I raise my right arm and yell "back". Cody blasts off even harder left and Eric yells "Handle". Again I blow the whistle and Cody sits. Eric says, louder this time, "Right angle Slam-it Back", so I do an angle cast and yell louder "Back". Cody jumps hard left, really digging in when Eric steps in front of me and takes over, easing Cody back right with soft, easy silent cast.

After the dust settled Eric asks me what the H*** I was thinking? I told him I thought "Slam-it Back" meant a loud vocal cast. Eric just cracked up and said he was saying "Silent Back" not Slam-it Back. He then explained to me how and when we use silent cast (most of the time) versus voice cast. In easy terms, if you want to change momentum, use a silent cast, if you need to reinforce momentum, such as a dog on line but breaking down, use voice. This was a valuable lesson that I learned in the most clear cut manner early on. Just thought I'd share.

John
John,
In line with this, do you ever reinforce a line or back while the dog is running?
ex: if you see maybe he is breaking down a little would you ever give a "back" command to keep him going?
No whistle or sit, just keeping up the momentum.
I do use this in training sometimes.

Is that allowed in a test scenario?

Thanks,

BTW--Great point about too much voice on casts, a friend taught me to STOP.
I seldom use any voice in casting now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Stan, we obviously do that a lot in training, but it could be argued that it is intimidation to do it in an actual test or field trial. Back when I was a junior judge I was judging with someone I respect a lot when someone did that as their dog was breaking down at a critical point on a water blind. My co-judge immediately laid into the handler, telling him if he ever did that again he would be dropped. We discussed it after the fact, and she made a good point that in training that same scenario is accompanied by a correction, "back-burn-back", so she considered it a force enroute at the trial to. As a handler you would be between a rock and a hard spot if you have to stop the dog with a whistle, which will really break momentum, only to cast a hard "vocal back" to pick up the momentum.

John
 

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Stan, we obviously do that a lot in training, but it could be argued that it is intimidation to do it in an actual test or field trial. Back when I was a junior judge I was judging with someone I respect a lot when someone did that as their dog was breaking down at a critical point on a water blind. My co-judge immediately laid into the handler, telling him if he ever did that again he would be dropped. We discussed it after the fact, and she made a good point that in training that same scenario is accompanied by a correction, "back-burn-back", so she considered it a force enroute at the trial to. As a handler you would be between a rock and a hard spot if you have to stop the dog with a whistle, which will really break momentum, only to cast a hard "vocal back" to pick up the momentum.

John
Exactly where it is from.
Force to pile.

When I used to give "overs," I would always bark it out to make sure he could hear me.:rolleyes:
I have learned I could whisper and he could hear me.

But any way, if I gave a hard "over," sometimes he would go back.
Jim Coggins took the time to explain what was happening.
So now it is all hand casts.
I try really hard to avoid "over" casts any way.
Either "back" or "angled back" is what we shoot for.

Thanks again,
 

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John; the general rule is: verbal for momentum, silent for control.
that rule applies in the system Eric was trained as well.
a better question is: how do you train a dog to properly respond to those rules?

GG
 

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John; the general rule is: verbal for momentum, silent for control.
that rule applies in the system Eric was trained as well.
a better question is: how do you train a dog to properly respond to those rules?

GG
It's all dependent upon how you train as well.

I also use silent when casting down wind and verbal on an upwind cast so the dog digs into the wind. Verbal casts into water and silents out of the water.
 

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I was taught that silent when you need a direction change and verbel when you want him going harder the way he wants to go,kinda what John said.
 

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Well this discussion makes a lot of things make a lot more sense. Now, as a general rule that might apply differently to different dogs, when do you switch from building momentum when teaching blinds to really insisting on a good line?
 

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John; the general rule is: verbal for momentum, silent for control.
that rule applies in the system Eric was trained as well.
a better question is: how do you train a dog to properly respond to those rules?

GG
We aren't training the dogs to comply with the rules. Rather these are rules of thumb to follow in casting a dog based on the typical response to a cast for dogs that were firced on back in training.

If you never forced on back in training, the verbal cast will likely not have the same effect to drive the dog back (or at least not to the same degree).

@Troy, I use the verbal exactly opposite of you. I find that silent gives more line correction so will give silent when turning the dog into/up wind. This helps the dog understand we are changing direction, don't dig back. When turning with/down wind I will give a verbal to make sur the dog doesn't let the wind push him into too much direction change.

It is a matter of knowing how your particular dog reacts to casts either into or with the wind though.
 

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Well this discussion makes a lot of things make a lot more sense. Now, as a general rule that might apply differently to different dogs, when do you switch from building momentum when teaching blinds to really insisting on a good line?
When the dog is running cold blinds with a lot of confidence. Notice I said with confidence and not with precision. The more you let a dog run, the more confidence he gains. Even if not necessarily running on the proper line. The more you handle, correct or call back a dog, the more momentum fades.

So when the dog is running with a lot if confidence. you can start demanding better lines and better casts. From this point on, you should be using literal casting and avoid the helping casts.
 

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When the dog is running cold blinds with a lot of confidence. Notice I said with confidence and not with precision. The more you let a dog run, the more confidence he gains. Even if not necessarily running on the proper line. The more you handle, correct or call back a dog, the more momentum fades.

So when the dog is running with a lot if confidence. you can start demanding better lines and better casts. From this point on, you should be using literal casting and avoid the helping casts.
Agreed. I think of the quote in my signature a lot when running blinds especially.

Great post John, thanks for sharing.
 

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OK Captain and Rick C, that's what I thought. We are still working pattern blinds, adding the diversion, and will shortly be on cold blinds. He needs a little more momentum, and I have been casting very little on the pattern blinds in favor of just letting him run. Sounds like I have been doing the right thing on that.

When would you guys start stopping him if he goes on the hunt at the end of the blind? The same time as demanding the better line?
 

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OK Captain and Rick C, that's what I thought. We are still working pattern blinds, adding the diversion, and will shortly be on cold blinds. He needs a little more momentum, and I have been casting very little on the pattern blinds in favor of just letting him run. Sounds like I have been doing the right thing on that.

When would you guys start stopping him if he goes on the hunt at the end of the blind? The same time as demanding the better line?
Sorry, do you mean on cold or pattern blinds? What I was taught was to make the blind (bird or bumper) easy to find once the dog got out there. Some use white stakes, some a live shackled pigeon, dead birds etc... and the bird/bumpers are placed in an open area with low cover. Once the dog gets out there when learning to run cold blinds, I want him to be rewarded quickly and easily with the bird/bumper. This too helps build confidence as the dog learns that there will always be something out there for him to bring back. So I try to handle, if need be, in the mid part of the blind and use the wind to my/the dogs advantage as he gets closer to the end.
 

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Sorry, do you mean on cold or pattern blinds? What I was taught was to make the blind (bird or bumper) easy to find once the dog got out there. Some use white stakes, some a live shackled pigeon, dead birds etc... and the bird/bumpers are placed in an open area with low cover. Once the dog gets out there when learning to run cold blinds, I want him to be rewarded quickly and easily with the bird/bumper. This too helps build confidence as the dog learns that there will always be something out there for him to bring back. So I try to handle, if need be, in the mid part of the blind and use the wind to my/the dogs advantage as he gets closer to the end.
Exactly the way I approach it as well. Even for an advanced dog running a tough AA blind I don't want to get into a handling battle at the end and have the dog forget all he learned on the way out. I will work on challenging endings as well, but I'll make those blinds easier to get to.
 

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What make your dog obey a silent cast into the wind? i've heard some say when they use a silent and verbal, and why they use each command, but not why the dog chooses to obey the command. Assumiing your dog has been conditioned to the electric collar, why is your dog under better control using the silent command?
good stuff to be learned here guy's!!!!!!!!
GG
 

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Still on pattern blinds and using stakes with flagging so he can ID the blind if he gets anywhere close. I was training with a group last weekend and was told that he was going a little independent at the very end, and they suggested I whistle stop him right at the stake to make sure he understood that he was under my control until the very end. Your take on that, obviously general since you haven't seen the dog in question?
 

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Stan, we obviously do that a lot in training, but it could be argued that it is intimidation to do it in an actual test or field trial. Back when I was a junior judge I was judging with someone I respect a lot when someone did that as their dog was breaking down at a critical point on a water blind. My co-judge immediately laid into the handler, telling him if he ever did that again he would be dropped. We discussed it after the fact, and she made a good point that in training that same scenario is accompanied by a correction, "back-burn-back", so she considered it a force enroute at the trial to. As a handler you would be between a rock and a hard spot if you have to stop the dog with a whistle, which will really break momentum, only to cast a hard "vocal back" to pick up the momentum.

John
Sounds like a judge that can't separate herself from judging and training. How does she know how I train? Show me intimidation in the rule book!

Sad

/pPaul
 
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