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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While trying to run dogs and be the chief marshal this weekend it struck me again how hard it is for the minor stakes to keep a steady stream of dogs on hand. Two things came to mind. The first was the handlers that only had to be at the stake they were running were at a disadvantage. The second thing was the completion was at the mercy of when folks could show up and run. I had the #3 dog to run in the Q. Only 19 dogs were entered and I think I was about 12th to 15th to run. The folks after me were still at the open. and the stake would be waiting. This set-up I dont feel had any lighting advantage only the amount of scent down and quality of timing and throws. I do know that the derby was waiting on folks that had to run in the open then go to the AM. So finally this gets to my question of how long is it fair to other contestants, judges and workers to have to wait. Is watching the test dog and the next 10+ dogs in the open reason enough not to be at the derby or Q and run and get it over with. The stake marshals did a great job of moving folks from stake to stake and did have cell communication. I know that that has always been that way but does it make it right or fair? JMHO and back to your regular program......
 

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We have no such issues

1. Owner Handler Qualifying

2. Open judges also judge the Derby

The larger question is how long MUST the judges wait, the rule book gives little relief as the minor stakes are by rule apportioned less time and fewer resources. As a judge of a minor stake I have waited as long as one hour, no one should have to wait longer.
 

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i have waited over an hour for dogs to judge in the minors. it makes it tough for everyone involved. i thought it was excessive.

as a contestant, i once hung around on saturday for the open to finish, as the Q started at the conclusion of the open. the judges finished the open and ended their day early. i wasn't happy about driving 180 miles for nada, as the trial was close by, but it ended up ok as we took the blue on sunday. :wink:

i understand the need to allocate grounds and resources to the majors first, but there have been times i'd also have liked to see the minors treated with more respect.-paul
 

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Re: .

fowl hunter said:
its hard when you have young kids as bird boys,they get impatient
Us guys with grey in our beards get impatient too...
 

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EdA said:
We have no such issues

1. Owner Handler Qualifying

2. Open judges also judge the Derby

The larger question is how long MUST the judges wait, the rule book gives little relief as the minor stakes are by rule apportioned less time and fewer resources. As a judge of a minor stake I have waited as long as one hour, no one should have to wait longer.
Ed,

1. Have your open judge's objected to judging the derby?
2. How long have you used this format?
3. Do you think this strategy would be effective for most clubs?

fp
 

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What's wrong with this picture?

There were 9 dogs left to run the last series of the Derby on Sunday morning. The test was set up and the first 6 handlers with their dogs were there to watch the Test Dog run about 9:05 am. After moving the location of the fall of the long bird, the second Test Dog ran about 9:20.

As soon as Test Dog ran, Derby Marshal got on the cell phone. Open Marshal was gunning a station and didn't answer cell phone. Message was sent to Open via another person to let them know the Derby was starting and needed any Open handlers that could be released. Amateur Marshal was called and told Derby was starting and needed its handlers as well.

By 10:05 all 6 dogs present had been run. Phone calls and messages were again given to the AA stakes that the Derby was waiting on dogs.

By 11:00, the only people left at the Derby were the 2 Judges, 2 Bird Boys, 2 stake marshals, husband of one marshal and one Derby handler.

About 11:20, two club members left to drive to Open and see if at least one Pro could be released to run.

Lunches were taken to the Judges and Bird Boys at 11:35.

At 11:40 another call was placed to the Open and Derby Marshal talked to "someone holding the Open clip board".

At 11:45 a call to the Amateur got the response that the handler that the Derby was waiting on was just running one dog and would run his second dog in another three dogs and would not be released until both his dogs were run there.

The seventh dog arrived from the Open and ran about 11:50.

The eighth dog arrived from the Open and ran about 12:05.

The Bird Boys laid down at their stations and had to be woke up at 12:45 when the last dog arrived from the Amateur. At 12:53, the Derby was finally over.

Debbie
 

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Bayou Magic said:
1. Have your open judge's objected to judging the derby?
to the contrary most enjoy judging derby dogs, our derbies are generally small and doable in one day, our club does not have the resources to hold 3 stakes at once. On occassion we have to get derby judges which everyone understands, extra incentive for the handlers to do the first series of the Amateur. if you go out of the Amateur early, don't have a Derby dog, and we need extra Derby judges expect to get tapped on the shoulder.


Bayou Magic said:
2. How long have you used this format?
since 1975

Bayou Magic said:
3. Do you think this strategy would be effective for most clubs?fp
depends on the club and whether they desire to make money or hold an enjoyable manageable trial. I have worked at finding conflicting dates to keep our entry manageable. I didn't work too well this year because Piney Woods lost their grounds and cancelled their trial, if their departure is permanent I/we will find another date after the migrant professional trainers and their amateurs have gone home :wink:
 

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Steve Amrein said:
Is watching the test dog and the next 10+ dogs in the open reason enough not to be at the derby or Q and run and get it over with.
That is absolutely not reason enough for not being there!

The larger question is how long MUST the judges wait, the rule book gives little relief as the minor stakes are by rule apportioned less time and fewer resources.
While the rule book says that the majors get preference over the minors, and it says that the running order can be modified as necessary for the smooth running of the trial, I don't ever remember it saying that the minors had to wait indefinitely.

I think giving people every opportunity to run out of order, run back-to-back, etc. necessary so that people can run multiple stakes is required. Asking volunteer judges and workers to wait for hours so a handler can run multiple dogs in the Open, Am and D or Q is too much.

I would suggest that every dog in minor stake, where the handler has nowhere else to be, be run in order while handlers with needs to be other places be inserted in the running order immediately as they become available. Then, when all the available dogs are done the stake marshal should get on the phone with the chief marshal and have them notify the other stakes that the minor is out of dogs and that they will wait X number of minutes and then start calling dogs to the line and putting them on the clock.

That said, I also think that come Sunday morning when the Am and a minor stake are running and trying to get done the Open shouldn't even start until 9 or 10 so that there is no reason the people in the last series of the Open can't get their dogs run before the Open starts.
 

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Lab-Kid said:
That said, I also think that come Sunday morning when the Am and a minor stake are running and trying to get done the Open shouldn't even start until 9 or 10 so that there is no reason the people in the last series of the Open can't get their dogs run before the Open starts.
I totally agree and so stated in a PM, how long does it take to run 9 Derby dogs on a double, one hour??, send the pros to the Derby FIRST
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
It was just not 1 trial or 1 club but this shows a problem. I judged a derby while raining on friday the last dog ran around 2:00 for 25 or so dogs. test dog ran @ 8:02

I bet the poop would hit the fan if the workers or the judges showed up at 2 for the first series.

This is the kind of S#*@ that folks quit helping at trials. I could have gone to the next closest trial ran and been home with way less work.

I am not fond of using judges to judge 2 stakes even if both are minor I am always afraid someone will get short changed.
 

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In the pro's defense the first trial that I went to this spring Sunday morning Paul sletton, Mark edwards, Joe Harp and Scott Dewey all asked to run first in the derby so they could get to open. So I think that if at all possible the pro's don't mind running first to get out of the way before going to the open. Another way to fix this would be, like the judges did at Arkansas start it as early as possible before the open starts. I know it was very cold in MO. this weekend, but why not start the derby at 8:00 instaed of 9:00.
 

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And that is quite often caused by just handing a clipboard to someone and telling them they are the Marshall.

Jerry
 

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Derby and Q

I know that minor stakes have to wait. I have judged both a Q and a Derby this spring. We were blessed at both trials with weather that allowed us to run our first 2 series together. That way, when you have a handler there, you get in 2 series. We worked out a rotation on the running order so that the same dog did not have to start each series.
While not perfect, this helped to ease some of the pressure on the contestants who are only running your stake.

We have got to remember that a lot of our Derby and Q contestants are new to the sport and are as nervous as they can be. It is our job as both club members and judges to make this is as fun as possible. Major stakes
will ususally turn a pro or Amateur with multiple dogs loose long enough to go and run a minor stake. It takes a little more thought on the Marshalls part and some conversation between marshalls before the stakes start.

What does the rule book say about running out of order at the Open or Am when someone has been released to a minor stake to keep it running?
All Pros and Am's with multiple all age dogs know that they have to break away from the major stakes and go to the minor ones. Maybe we need to be a little more vigilant about this.
 
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