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How many all-age dogs should be judged?

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Discussion Starter #1
A previous poll ask of judging experience and there 30+ responders to having judged an all-age stake.
Given average help, grounds, weather etc What is your opinion on the number of all-age dogs you could judge fairly and adequately in a 2 day time period?(Open:Fri-Sat, Amat: Sat-Sun)
 

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in 2 days 65 dogs is enough to have a good trial, 75 is doable, and after that it's definitely a 3 day affair
 

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How Many To Judge

This is a rather subjective poll. It depends upon personal experience--or the lack thereof.

I would like to think that whenever I run under a set of judges, I will be judged FAIRLY. The test may be harder or easier based upon the numbers entered, but this has nothing to do with fairness.

I have run stakes that had 50 or fewer dogs & experienced the "thrill" of a test designed to eliminate dogs, purely and simply. Will it be hard if the stake has many entries? I would hope so. Will my dog(s) be able to complete it adequately--I surely hope so.

I still say just judge 'em and quit whining! Workers will still be in the field late picking up the equipment, etc. Judges will still eliminate dogs because as a general rule it appears that most judges would rather have dogs actually fail or perform poorly and be dropped than have many at the end & judge the merits of one against another. I can't count the number of times I've heard people say they like to design tests that let the dogs eliminate themselves!

Now if you want to restructure the poll to determine comfort levels for judges in terms of the number of dogs--go for it. Just don't say it won't be fair. Fair simply means everyone has an opportunity to be successful--doesn't mean they will experience success!
 

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Some people made a big deal about the low numbers in the Open in the Northwest on another thread I started.

Not only would I rather run or judge a 40-70 dog Open, I would rather a own a retriever that does well in trials of that size than ones that do well in 100+ trials. Dogs that do well in the smaller opens are more my kinda of dog - they normally have more of what I want in a retriever.

Why?

Because in a smaller trial you can (USED To ANYWAY) have spread out well placed marks that really test the memory. You can have bigger go get marks because you have time to watch dogs hunt. You can have bigger swims. You can have more swims.

With larger trials you get much more control tests, training tests and far fewer Natural dog tests. You get tight control tests that punish high desire dogs and reward pigs. You get marks/blinds that find the dogs that are TRAINED to thread the needle, go under the arch, pass the stack of dead birds, behind/infront of the flyer crates. Training becomes much more important than natural ability.
 

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Gerard Rozas said:
Some people made a big deal about the low numbers in the Open in the Northwest on another thread I started.

Not only would I rather run or judge a 40-70 dog Open, I would rather a own a retriever that does well in trials of that size than ones that do well in 100+ trials. Dogs that do well in the smaller opens are more my kinda of dog - they normally have more of what I want in a retriever.

Why?

Because in a smaller trial you can (USED To ANYWAY) have spread out well placed marks that really test the memory. You can have bigger go get marks because you have time to watch dogs hunt. You can have bigger swims. You can have more swims.

With larger trials you get much more control tests, training tests and far fewer Natural dog tests. You get tight control tests that punish high desire dogs and reward pigs. You get marks/blinds that find the dogs that are TRAINED to thread the needle, go under the arch, pass the stack of dead birds, behind/infront of the flyer crates. Training becomes much more important than natural ability.
Good post Gerard, makes alot of sense to me.
 

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Great post Gerard, but not having over 70 dogs doesn't prevent some (many) judges from using the same techniques when they really aren't necessary.
 

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How Many All-age Dog's Can You Judge?

I've judged a 119 dog open,and have run a few AA stakes.I believe the "complete " AA dog should be able to do both long demanding marks,and short checkdown birds.In a large AA stake, I will start off with the short stuff when the grounds allow,and finish with the long demanding marks with the fewer dogs.This should indicate who is the best dog on this given weekend.Gerard,you know you are my buddy,but all dogs have strength's and weaknesses.High-rollers have line manner problems/lack of tractability and "others" may have a lack of momentum.From my experience's,good test produce good dogs!
 

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It seems to me the smaller the entry means the larger the judge's canvas.
 

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Re: How Many All-age Dog's Can You Judge?

David Maronge said:
I've judged a 119 dog open,and have run a few AA stakes.I believe the "complete " AA dog should be able to do both long demanding marks,and short checkdown birds.In a large AA stake, I will start off with the short stuff when the grounds allow,and finish with the long demanding marks with the fewer dogs.This should indicate who is the best dog on this given weekend.Gerard,you know you are my buddy,but all dogs have strength's and weaknesses.High-rollers have line manner problems/lack of tractability and "others" may have a lack of momentum.From my experience's,good test produce good dogs!
Good rebuttal David. Your post also makes alot of sense.
 

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Re: How Many All-age Dog's Can You Judge?

Brian Cockfield said:
David Maronge said:
I've judged a 119 dog open,and have run a few AA stakes.I believe the "complete " AA dog should be able to do both long demanding marks,and short checkdown birds.In a large AA stake, I will start off with the short stuff when the grounds allow,and finish with the long demanding marks with the fewer dogs.This should indicate who is the best dog on this given weekend.Gerard,you know you are my buddy,but all dogs have strength's and weaknesses.High-rollers have line manner problems/lack of tractability and "others" may have a lack of momentum.From my experience's,good test produce good dogs!
Good rebuttal David. Your post also makes alot of sense.
Yeah except that not all high rollers have line manners.
 

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I hope I judge all dogs fairly and set-up test that allow my co-judge and I to do so. I think Vicky summed things up with her discussion of the word "fair".

Personally, 70 or less will make make things easier for all involved, but 55-60 is even better.

Grounds play a huge part in what you can do as as far as setting up a test.
 

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David my good Buddy,

Was not just talking about the short breakdown bird or just the punch bird.

Lots of things you can do that very technical in nature other than short marks. And yes you can do long punch birds in a big open, but it better be planned right or you will spent HOURS watching dogs hunting acres of land.

There are many types of tests that are disappearing from FTs because of these monster stakes. The straight up triple is just about gone. It is common practice to imbed blinds in marks, to interrupt marks.

Problem with this is that new guys/gals think that this is normal - that is the way to test dogs. Control/training is first and marking is second.
These ideas have a way of filtering down to the minor stakes.

And that is dangerous for the game and the breed.
 

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Gerard Rozas said:
There are many types of tests that are disappearing from FTs because of these monster stakes. The straight up triple is just about gone.
Gee, and I thought they are the mainstay of the Qual. :lol:
 

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I agree with Gerard ... and also with Ed.

As Ed says, once a stake gets past a certain size, time becomes a factor.

And although Gerard did not say it in this way, time impacts the types of tests you put on.

If you know you have a 100 plus dog field, time management becomes critical. If you run a wide open triple - you can plan on 8 minutes per dog - if you are cooking with gas ... and everything is perfect in the field.

Take Wichita Falls as an example
So 120 dogs x 8 minutes = 960 minutes / 60 = 16.0 hours

Sunrise is 6:30 am
Sunset is 6:30 pm

Assume you are really on top of your game and run your first competing dog at 8 am and continuing running dogs at an eight minute per dog clip until 6 pm. You have still 10 hours and still have 6 hours of dogs to run.

By necessity, you have split the field. If you are lucky, the wind will hold and not shift on you and give away all of your birds.

So Saturday you begin at 8 am, this means land marks finish at 2 pm.

Assume setup of land blind and running of test dog takes one hour. You are now at 3 pm.

Assume you lose 50% of your field on land marks. You have 60 dogs still in contention.
Assume land blind takes 4 minutes per dog. 60 dogs x 4 minutes/dog = 240 minutes
240 minutes divided by 60 minutes/hour = 4 hours
You finish land blind at 7 pm.

Assume you lose 50% of your dogs on land blind. You have 30 dogs in contention.

On Sunday, you start at 8 am.
Water blind takes 7 minutes per dog. 30 dogs x 7 minutes per dog = 210 minutes
210 minutes divided by 60 minutes/hour = 3.5 hours
You finish water blind at 11:30 am.

It takes one hour to set up water marks.
Assume you lose 50% of your dogs. You have 15 dogs in contention.

You start water marks at 12:30 pm
Water marks take 15 minutes per dog. 15 dogs x 15 minutes per dog = 225 minutes
225 minutes divided by 60 minutes = 3.75 hours

You are done at 4:15 pm.

This scenario assumes everything runs like clockwork.

If the trains run on time and everything is ready to run when it should and there is no waiting on dogs.
If the tests work as intended and get answers.
If the dogs run at projected time or less.

Then you get done with the Open in three days, running 10 hours per day, with an hour and forty five minutes to spare.

There is no margin for error.

Miss anywhere along the line and you are running dogs on Monday ... or pencil whipping the field like a mad man.
 

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And you're not even leaving time for lunch Ted.
 

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Saving how to do it for another thread.
IMO. The answer is 66/ 80 dogs Max for a three day event.
john
 

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What is lunch? You mean that sandwich I scarfed down while rebirding? :p

Add a foggy morning, or afternoon shower to Ted's timeline and you're officially screwed. Add a couple of no-birds, or a faulty gun, or some such implement of Mr. Murphy's and you are also behind the 8 ball time-wise.
 

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Ted Shih said:
Sunrise is 6:30 am
Sunset is 6:30 pm
Assume land blind takes 4 minutes per dog. 60 dogs x 4 minutes/dog = 240 minutes
240 minutes divided by 60 minutes/hour = 4 hours
You finish land blind at 7 pm.
And the last few dogs run the land blind in the dark? :shock:

Maybe the clubs should start renting those big sets of lights the construction crew use, and continue the FT through the night! :)

Latisha
 

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Doug wrote :
Gee, and I thought they are the mainstay of the Qual.
And it used to be the mainstay of AA stakes too!

Just a matter of time before some "smart" Q judges say -

"Lets run a double with both retired, but make them pickup a blind behind the flyer first. They do it in the AA all the time so they should be able to do it to become QAA"
 

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Gerard Rozas said:
Doug wrote :
Gee, and I thought they are the mainstay of the Qual.
And it used to be the mainstay of AA stakes too!

Just a matter of time before some "smart" Q judges say -

"Lets run a double with both retired, but make them pickup a blind behind the flyer first. They do it in the AA all the time so they should be able to do it to become QAA"
Then when the dogs "do it" in the "Q"they don't want to give them a little ole Title :wink:
john
 
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