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I have always believed the DEFINITION of a mark was:

A dog that goes DIRECTLY to the AOF, and establishes a HUNT.

Once that happens, the marking portion of that particular mark is over. The dog MARKED


The SIZE of the AOF changes in proportion to what number bird it is in the triple, and the Factors involved.
Gooser
 

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I have talked with Ted quite a bit about this Marking, and AOF stuff.

He posted this responce once about questions I was asking about "Proceeding directly to AOF."

He quotes the FT rule bokk quite a bit..

BUT<<<

The more I an learning,, the more I think the following can be applied to ALL venues in the retrieving dog games.

I re read this quite often.. It makes PERFECT sense to me now..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Shih
First, you need to consider what Area of Fall means

SUPPLEMENT

What precisely constitutes the "area of the 'fall' " defies accurate definition; yet, at the outset of every test, each Judge must arbitrarily define its hypothetical boundaries for himself, and for each bird in that test, so that he can judge whether dogs have remained within his own concept of "area of the 'fall,"' as well as how far they have wandered away from "the area" and how much cover they have disturbed unnecessarily. In determining these arbitrary and hypothetical boundaries of the "area of the 'fall,"' due considerations should be given to various factors:

(1) the type, the height and the uniformity of the cover,
(2) light conditions,
(3) direction of the prevailing wind and its intensity,
(4) length of the various falls,
(5) the speed of individual dogs,
(6) whether there is a change in cover (as from stubble to plowed ground, or to ripe alfalfa, or to machine-picked corn, etc.) or whether the "fall" is beyond a hedge, across a road, or over a ditch, etc., and, finally, and most important,
(7) whether one is establishing the "area of the 'fall"' for a single, or for the first bird a dog goes for, in multiple retrieves, or for the second or the third bird, since each of these should differ from the others.

In general, the "area of the 'fall"' for a single should be relatively small; the area for a first retrieve in a "double" should be smaller than for the second bird, and both of these should be larger in a "triple," and larger still for the third bird in it. Also, "the area" for short retrieves should certainly be smaller than for longer retrieves. Since there are so many conditions and variables to be taken into consideration, it is obvious that each Judge, and for every series, must attempt to define for himself a hypothetical "area of the 'fall"' for each bird, and then judge the dogs accordingly. However, the penalties inflicted should vary in their severity, depending on the distance which individual dogs wander out of the area, the frequency of such wanderings, the number of birds mis-marked in a given test, and by the amount of cover disturbed in these meanderings.



Mike

Start with the Rule Book

Ted


Soooo,, From the above,,,, I think AOF, and size of hunts can and does vary depending on circumstances.. or maybe ,, it SHOULD

Please note also,,the Ted included SPEED of the dog as a factor in determining size of AOF.

It only makes sense then,, if your boundry of the AOF has been determined to be quite large,, then I assume,, a hunt could be proportionate to the larger area..

Gooser
 

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Mr Fallon

If your read what my belief is the definition of what constitutes a mark,, then by the time the handler has decided to "Handle,, its prolly not an issue with its marking,,,, The dog may have gone directly,, with purpose,, to the AOF,, and established a hunt...... ( the dog marked) but for what ever reason, cant come up with the bird..

That dog has to bring the bird back to pass,, so NOW,, its a RETRIEVING issue... NOT MARKING ( that has already been established).... Handle to the bird,, get yer arse back in here..

Gooser
 

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OK...

What does the speed of the dog have to do with the amount of "hunt" on a mark? Are you saying that high rollers are allowed to over-run the mark, but pokey dogs have to get straight there and are only allowed a brief hunt?

Doesn't seem right.
No,, BUT,,,:p

I think it only fair to consider that the amount of area a fast dog covers before decisions are made has to be taken into account...

A slower deliberate dog Tends to have smaller hunt areas than Fast dogs Natually..
But the key,,, In my opinion,, is if the dog ,either fast or slow, is HUNTING in MY predetermined AOF.. SO,, before I set the test up,, Me and my co judge,, have taken into consideration a fast dog, and a slower dog, to help us quantify the size of our Areas of fall, along WITH the other considerations,,

Its a courtesy thing with the speed. IMHO

Gooser

Gooser
 

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Recieved P.M.s

Just to clarify..

I am NOT a judge.

I was hypotheticalistically dreamin, and expressin my opinion..

Member the universal rule... about Gooser universally...

:razz:
Gooser
 

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I have always believed the DEFINITION of a mark was:

A dog that goes DIRECTLY to the AOF, and establishes a HUNT.

Once that happens, the marking portion of that particular mark is over. The dog MARKED


The SIZE of the AOF changes in proportion to what number bird it is in the triple, and the Factors involved.
Gooser

As I said In post #11,, by the time a handler decides to handle,, a judge has already determined if the dog proceeded directly to the AOF and established a hunt (definition of a mark) If you decide,, or the judge asks you to put the dog on the bird,, its now a retrieving issue... The handle has nothing to do with whether the dog marked or not..
 

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John it says it in the AKC rule book, just unsder the sentence you quoted..

Page 41, "Abilities of Retrievers

Quote:

A dog that disturbs cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of a fall, either by not going directly to the area, or by leaving it, even though it eventually finds the bird without being handled, must be scored low in Perseverance or receive no credit in Marking on that particular bird.No credit in Marking shall be given if the dog fails to go to the area, establish a hunt and find the bird; a low score in Perseverance shall be given if the dog goes to the area, establishes a hunt then leaves to hunt elsewhere. If it becomes necessary in either situation to handle a dog, handling must be done crisply and cleanly with full control being demonstrated by handling the dog to the bird.

Now hear me out! This is the quote from AKC HT rule book... HRC rule book says the same thing basically,, but leaves out "find the bird"....

But the definition of the Mark,, is,,, dog goes to area of fall,, and estabblishes a hunt...

Anecdotal story time..

Finished water test..

last bird of a triple. (first bird down) Bird dropped in lunge water and bottom of pond is really mucky. Birds are not floating well that afternoon, dog gets a really low floater..

Dog picks up first 2 birds of the triple,, but on the last memory bird,, goes directly to the AOF,, establishes his hunt,, but is a fast dog, and is churning up pond muck,, and running over low floating bird.. The Dog MARKED the Fall really well, but could not come up with the bird. Judges gave handler ample time,, then asked the handler to put dog on the bird.. ( dog stayed in AOF the whole time)

Dog still could not make the bird after repeated handling.. Dog just could not smell it or kept running over the top of it pushing it down under each time..

Dog MARKED well,,, just couldnt come up with the bird..

Dog failed !

reason,,,,,, returned without bird....

The dog MARKED....

Gooser
 

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According to the rules in HRC, a dog that proceeds directly to the area of the fall, establishes a hunt, but can't come up with the bird and is handled to the bird, is not marked down. The key thing here is in the area, and established a hunt.

I hate to disagree with Jerry Mann, but I think he is wrong.

All handles are not the same!

DMAN

In Goosers opinion,, Mr Mann is exactly correct..

The handel didnt show the dog marked!!!!!! Only the dog can show that by definition.....

Proceede directly to the AOF and establish a hunt!

Once a dog DOES or DOESNT perform this,, the handeling part is over....
 

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Both venues the dog fails if it doesnt bring the bird back..

Even if both dogs marked the AOPF and established a hunt.

One venue will call it failer to retrieve.

the other MAY call it poor marking... Please note i did say MAY!!!


Gooser
 
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