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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lately my dog has been acting as if i am killing him with the collar. I have used it on my self and while it does not feel good i can stand it and would def do what ever you said to turn it off.

The thing is that he is responding good at really low levels now, but i have read that you should keep corrections high so the dog knows it is a correction. Does it matter what level the correction is as long as he responds, or should i keep it where it was when i CC'd him.
 

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The thing is that he is responding good at really low levels now
Does it matter what level the correction is as long as he responds

You answered your own question

At the end of the day what is the goal? To get the dog to respond and take the apropriate action or make the correct decision....If that is happening at the "lower levels" if it aint broke don't fix it!
 

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When you say responding good, what do you mean?

For example...
Running a crosswind land blind and dog begins to fade with the wind, you stop the dog and give angle back cast into the wind. Dog doesn't take cast and continues to dig back, so you stop again, give a low nick, and repeat cast and dog complies.

So, the dog is responding well to the low nick.

The question is, does the dog fade with the wind the next time you run a crosswind land blind?

Many dogs respond well to attrition (no collar nick). In the example above, lets say rather than giving a sit nick after the dig back, you call the dog back to the point of refusal, and then repeat the cast and the dog complies.

So, the dog is responding well to attrition.

Some times the good response to attrition is not long lasting, so you end up doing the same thing every time you run a crosswind land blind. Maybe the same is true of low level collar pressure.

Point being you want to see long term changes in behavior. If you don't see that long term behavior change in using the low nick, maybe using a higher level would bring it about.

To answer your question of how strong is too strong... Its a level which overwhelms the dog so that he can't think through the pressure to give the desired response.
 

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When you say responding good, what do you mean?

For example...
Running a crosswind land blind and dog begins to fade with the wind, you stop the dog and give angle back cast into the wind. Dog doesn't take cast and continues to dig back, so you stop again, give a low nick, and repeat cast and dog complies.

So, the dog is responding well to the low nick.

The question is, does the dog fade with the wind the next time you run a crosswind land blind?

Many dogs respond well to attrition (no collar nick). In the example above, lets say rather than giving a sit nick after the dig back, you call the dog back to the point of refusal, and then repeat the cast and the dog complies.

So, the dog is responding well to attrition.

Some times the good response to attrition is not long lasting, so you end up doing the same thing every time you run a crosswind land blind. Maybe the same is true of low level collar pressure.

Point being you want to see long term changes in behavior. If you don't see that long term behavior change in using the low nick, maybe using a higher level would bring it about.
To answer your question of how strong is too strong... Its a level which overwhelms the dog so that he can't think through the pressure to give the desired response.
Too strong of a correction, read abuse, is any correction over the amount necessary to acheive the desired response at a given time. Correcting at a higher than necessary level NOW in an attempt to eliminate future shortcomings is something that defies logic.

john
 

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Too strong of a correction, read abuse, is any correction over the amount necessary to acheive the desired response at a given time. Correcting at a higher than necessary level NOW in an attempt to eliminate future shortcomings is something that defies logic.

john
You would rather correct with a level 2 every single time you run a crosswind land blind, read stupid, vs. correcting 1 time with a level 3?

To each his own I guess.
 

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The thing is that he is responding good at really low levels now, but i have read that you should keep corrections high so the dog knows it is a correction. Does it matter what level the correction is as long as he responds, or should i keep it where it was when i CC'd him.
"Responding good at really low levels" tends to make me think he's becoming more sensitized, which is not unusual. You use the collar to change behavior, and he's doing that at low levels right? Why use more than is needed? Is behavior change what you mean when you say 'responding good'?

Evan
 

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You didn't define low levels.
Some dogs are more sensitive than others. Some dogs are really hard heads.

In Mike Lardy's cc dvd he is using a level five or six and at first he has a hard time determing if the dog is reacting. Then he only notices a reaction by the dog lagging behind him. Later in the dvd he got some vocal but not much.

On the other hand Hank (by Pirate) will respond very well to a low 2 and freak out at a high 2 or low three.

Most of the dogs I have trained have been at level three medium or high. I have had a few hard heads where I had to crank it up to the max.

Others are correct by saying to use the level where you get a behavior change.
 

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What I have been told is look for a behavioral change. I was actually having the issue where my pup is vocal at a level 2 (he isnt vocal now at 2 as he has gotten use to the corrections very seldom now is he vocal) and has been working on a level 1. But now that I have him CC'd I only use 2 now because when I am looking for a correction it needs to be snappy, as he knows all his commands, and at a level 1 it wasnt snappy.
 

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What I have been told is look for a behavioral change.
Correct; see post #6.
I was actually having the issue where my pup is vocal at a level 2 (he isnt vocal now at 2 as he has gotten use to the corrections very seldom now is he vocal) and has been working on a level 1. But now that I have him CC'd I only use 2 now because when I am looking for a correction it needs to be snappy, as he knows all his commands, and at a level 1 it wasnt snappy.
And the behavior change should be the read you're looking for, not merely vocalization. Some dogs are very vocal, while others are more stoic. Either way what you are seeking is not noise, but rather a favorable change in behavior. If that is the result you're getting, who needs noise? :D

Evan
 

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Evan and others,

How common is it to see a dog not respond well to attrition? My pup will go back and forth with me on when she scallops on a water blind, but when I apply a moderate degree of indirect pressure and a strong 'No!' I get much better results.

Does attrition work better on some dogs, and not so well on others? What is your experience with dogs that do not respond well to attrition?
 

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Warren,

Remember, attrition isn't a drill or a single technique. It's a principle, and your application may work fine for some dogs in that situation, and not so 'fine' for others. It's worth an honest try. But you're right to have been willing to move on when it failed to produce the behavior change you were looking for.

No, it's not that uncommon. Each dog, and each situation is different.

Evan
 

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Most but not all trainers start at a slitely haigher level, but not to hight to cause problems, No Go's, bugging, laying down ect-----. So when they turn it down and get a good responce, that is a indecater that the dog is understanding how to turn off the callar. also it's nice to have the option to use the constance (when needed) and you can't do that when working at hight levels.
Keith
 

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[QUOTE=Gunner's Dad; but i have read that you should keep corrections high so the dog knows it is a correction.
Would you please give the name of the printed material you read this from? Please tell me it was not on an internet forum??
Thanks
Dave
 

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So, would you agree that it is safe to say that it is good practice to use attrition first in water work, and if ineffective, then move onto collar correction(s)? I have been told by experienced trainers that it is best to delay the use of the collar around water... but dont we teach them about the collar in relation to water in swimby?.... Is this an old, often misunderstood axiom?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I do think that i have answered my own question. he is responding to the lower levels of correction, behavioral changes. Such as on force to pile, which is where were are, he slows he gets a back nick back and speeds back up. Same with whistle sits. Whistle, no sit, nick whistle he sits. My things was it is so low that i was worrying about him simply responding to the second whistle, or second command instead of the first but he seems to be getting what i am asking. So whether it is the nicks or the repetitions or what ever he is doing what im asking.

Where did i read it, yea it was on here and other places, so i was asking before i did something stupid. I have learned that i have a very sensitive dog, but yet still really stubborn at the same time. Part of this is due i know to his not starting any kind of training until he was 2 years old. I think part of the problem is more a learning curve for me rather than the dog.
 

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So, would you agree that it is safe to say that it is good practice to use attrition first in water work, and if ineffective, then move onto collar correction(s)? I have been told by experienced trainers that it is best to delay the use of the collar around water... but dont we teach them about the collar in relation to water in swimby?.... Is this an old, often misunderstood axiom?
Yes, I think it's antiquated thinking, personally. The way old schoolers used the e-collar was to create hot spots to shore break, and current methods largely avoid that kind of collar use. Use it to enforce commands your dog knows, and to compel a dog that is refusing to go. There are more ways than one to do that also.

Evan
 

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I agree with Evan on this. I force on water in the early stages of swimby. I may not do it like Evan but I always force on water. First I get the dog going with vigor to a pile across the small pond. Lots of freebees. First force is in a remote sit position on land, then force on the spin while dog in still on land while enroute. Second, force from side send while dog is still on land and enroute. Third, force while the dog is enroute to the pile but in the water. This is the Lardy method.
 

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You would rather correct with a level 2 every single time you run a crosswind land blind, read stupid, vs. correcting 1 time with a level 3?

To each his own I guess.
What is the time frame for which this "correcting one time with a level three" magic bullet, should be expected to hold up ?....If the expected carryover is not substantially long, perhaps you should have gone higher:p

No,we can no more arbitrarily pick level 3 than we can pick level 6, that's not how to be fair to the dog.
If a level two got the dog to hold in a crosswind on that blind I would stick with it, If and when it did not, then I would move up.
If when I moved up, that higher level got the dog to hold the line I would stick with it... etc., etc., etc.. at some point the correct level to be use would be found .... If in fact it is a three high. From then on, until something erodes those results, to initally use a level 4, 5 or a 6 as a correction for caving in to a crosswind on a blind is abuse.

john



john
 

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You would rather correct with a level 2 every single time you run a crosswind land blind, read stupid, vs. correcting 1 time with a level 3?

To each his own I guess.
I agree

I was having issues with slow sit, was working the dog on level #2, also used the rope, the dog was showing physical ( vocal) but it did not change the behavior , a short lesson on a low #4 and the dog couldn't sit fast enough. All the wasted time nagging the dog on #2 when 1 lesson on a higher level did the trick.
 

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Let's be clear, attrition to some dogs is a correction. Some dogs would much rather have the collar correction an be called in. Every dog is different, you have to read and know the dog to answer your question

/paul
 
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