[DRAKE FORET]

I'm having some issues with my dog creeping at the line for marks. How or what is the best way to put an end to this? I have several friends say that in training, if the dog moves in the slightest bit to pick the dog up and not let it get the retrieve. Retry again about 15 minutes later and repeat again if it happens again. In a way it makes since. Another question, is there another way to make the dog understand that no moving at the line equals getting the retrieve? I'm not saying that picking the dog up won't work but if he doesn't understand why is being picked up after several attempts i've gotten nowhere. I've just finished my Seasoned Title in UKC and want to fix this before i even think about moving to "Finished" or "Master" level. It's not a "Control Break" creep and the judges never said anything about it but i don't want him moving at all. He moves approximately 1-1/2 to 2 foot up when marks are thrown. Any suggestions or tips you guys do in training to nip this in the butt?

 

[Karen Klotthor]

Jason, call me and I will tell you about the drill I used for Amber to stop her breaking. The drill is for the working dog that creeps. It made a whole of difference.
Thanks so much for the hard work this weekend . You and Ted rock as marshals. I will see if I can find the paperwork I have on the drill and send to you.

 

[Longgun]

Are you re-healing before sending when the dog creeps?
deb

 

[Ikanizer]

I would also like to know how to handle the exact same problem with my dog. Moves about a foot or so when each mark is thrown. He moves back where he started on command but I can't make him understand he is not supposed to move.

 

[waycool]

I'm interested in this as well.... I have my own thoughts on how to address the issue but I'll wait for the experienced retriever folks to answer.... Its a bit different with pointing dogs obviously...

@Karen,

Why not share here?

 

[labsforme]

Do a thread search on "sit means sit". What you are seeing is an infraction of that. No movement is accepted except for some turning to watch marks go down. Dogs think in the here and now.Putting them away to "think about it" really doesn't do much.Correct it immediately.

 

[Jennifer Henion]

Here's a great thread on the topic: http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...-Creeping-Correction-1-Way&highlight=creeping

 

[Good Dogs]

The use of a "place" platform can be very effective in teaching pup that he/she must sit still while the birds are going down. The elevation - 3" is enough - creates a sharp definition of where pup can be w/o getting corrected. The platform need only be just big enough for pup's butt and 4 paws. Any movement means pup falls off the board and gets an immediate correction. Once pup is rock steady on the platform move to ground. Return to the platform as needed. I did not use a place board on my older dog, and he dances a bit at the line - never to the point of being required by the judges to reheel, but a nuisance that is now too ingrained to correct. The 1 year old, who started off with a place board, is - so far - rock steady. The platform I made for him is about 18" square, and is just a piece of 1/2" plywood on 2x4s.
There are plenty of drills to reinforce steady, but the place board is, IMO, the best way to teach the concept.

 

[MooseGooser]

The following is a response from a very nicelady that used to visit here on a regular basis. I miss her posts and the advice she gave.
Her name was Kristie Wilder.

Her method helped me greatly with a dog that was a horrible creeper! A regular country line dance when marks were going off.
I thought I would post her excellent suggestions/

Dogs usually, NOT always, creep because they've been allowed to creep. Somewhere
early in your dog's progress, there was probably a time where the front feet pitter-pattered
and then another time where they went forward a little... And so on... And now you have
a creeping problem.

To stop creeping, you must first prevent it (duh). And to do that, you have to: 1) be quick
and 2) choose a correction that fits your dog.

If your dog is way out of control creeping, it's not something you take down to zero
tolerance immediately. You would break it down into steps as far as what you allow for
your standard for steadiness. You cannot expect a dog that creeps three feet to creep zero
with one or two lessons... So first you look for IMPROVEMENT and you correct to
reach THAT standard - NOT perfection.

So here are some rules:
1) Your dog should never be allowed a retrieve where it does not meet your standards for
steadiness (these will tighten up over the course of a few weeks or months while you train
him to the new standards)
2) NO MULTIPLES. Singles only until you fix the problem.
3) If your dog does not meet your standards for steadiness, you correct and reset the dog.
Have them WATCH the mark being picked back up. Then rethrow. Repeat as much as
needed to get the dog to comply with your CURRENT standards for steadiness. IF he is
having a lot of trouble, you can do things like remove the gunshot, move marks farther
away.
4) You can HELP your dog have some success by doing very boring marks (far away, no
gunshot, no duck call, no splash) -- this allows you to get in some PRAISE so your dog
understands what's expected.

continued...

5) Make sure you have TWO commands -- one to move foward (we use HERE), one to
move backward (we use HEEL). Make sure your dog UNDERSTANDS that they are
DIFFERENT. Many people use HEEL to mean "stay with me" but it is MUCH MUCH
MORE helpful to have TWO commands. And VERY helpful when you're dealing with a
creeping dog. For people who use heel only, it doesn't help the dog move with you. For
dogs that creep, we swat them across the chest with the heeling stick while saying "heel"
(or a collar nick, or maybe burn, depending on the dog).

6) For each subsequent time your dog creeps and has not IMPROVED in effort to NOT
creep, the pressure should increase. So if you throw a mark, the dog fails your standards,
you have it picked up and he creeps again... He should receive a stronger correcton.

7) Back up A LOT. Work on surprising your dog. He should be sharp in his reponse to
you. He should stay stuck to you like glue. Correct for any lagging or half-effort
responses.

8) When at heel, watching marks, the dog's shoulders should be even with yours. Dogs
that are head ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU!! Dogs should not watch
marks with their butts at your feet. You and your dog should be able to make eye contact
without you having to bend over and forward and get on all fours... LOL You should be
able to look down and see your dog's eyes easily. Dogs that creep tend to be dogs that are
ahead at all times.

9) Control at all times. Creeping (and almost all other control issues) are usually a
symptom of a bigger problem. Make sure you are requiring your dog to sit and wait to get
out of his box/truck, that the collar is on before he gets out, that you heel nicely to the
line, that you require good manners both in and out of training.

 

[MooseGooser]

Its really your sit standard!

I bet if you Have experienced folks evaluate the problem,, you will be told what Mr Ted Shih told me once.....

Your dog doesnt "sit" cause you dont make her....

 

[Pam Spears]

Thanks for posting that, MG. I think Kristie is busy with a lab rescue project these days. Great post.

 

[Renee P.]

The following is a response from a very nicelady that used to visit here on a regular basis. I miss her posts and the advice she gave.
Her name was Kristie Wilder.

Her method helped me greatly with a dog that was a horrible creeper! A regular country line dance when marks were going off.
I thought I would post her excellent suggestions/

Dogs usually, NOT always, creep because they've been allowed to creep. Somewhere
early in your dog's progress, there was probably a time where the front feet pitter-pattered
and then another time where they went forward a little... And so on... And now you have
a creeping problem.

To stop creeping, you must first prevent it (duh). And to do that, you have to: 1) be quick
and 2) choose a correction that fits your dog.

If your dog is way out of control creeping, it's not something you take down to zero
tolerance immediately. You would break it down into steps as far as what you allow for
your standard for steadiness. You cannot expect a dog that creeps three feet to creep zero
with one or two lessons... So first you look for IMPROVEMENT and you correct to
reach THAT standard - NOT perfection.

So here are some rules:
1) Your dog should never be allowed a retrieve where it does not meet your standards for
steadiness (these will tighten up over the course of a few weeks or months while you train
him to the new standards)
2) NO MULTIPLES. Singles only until you fix the problem.
3) If your dog does not meet your standards for steadiness, you correct and reset the dog.
Have them WATCH the mark being picked back up. Then rethrow. Repeat as much as
needed to get the dog to comply with your CURRENT standards for steadiness. IF he is
having a lot of trouble, you can do things like remove the gunshot, move marks farther
away.
4) You can HELP your dog have some success by doing very boring marks (far away, no
gunshot, no duck call, no splash) -- this allows you to get in some PRAISE so your dog
understands what's expected.

continued...

5) Make sure you have TWO commands -- one to move foward (we use HERE), one to
move backward (we use HEEL). Make sure your dog UNDERSTANDS that they are
DIFFERENT. Many people use HEEL to mean "stay with me" but it is MUCH MUCH
MORE helpful to have TWO commands. And VERY helpful when you're dealing with a
creeping dog. For people who use heel only, it doesn't help the dog move with you. For
dogs that creep, we swat them across the chest with the heeling stick while saying "heel"
(or a collar nick, or maybe burn, depending on the dog).

6) For each subsequent time your dog creeps and has not IMPROVED in effort to NOT
creep, the pressure should increase. So if you throw a mark, the dog fails your standards,
you have it picked up and he creeps again... He should receive a stronger correcton.

7) Back up A LOT. Work on surprising your dog. He should be sharp in his reponse to
you. He should stay stuck to you like glue. Correct for any lagging or half-effort
responses.

8) When at heel, watching marks, the dog's shoulders should be even with yours. Dogs
that are head ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU!! Dogs should not watch
marks with their butts at your feet. You and your dog should be able to make eye contact
without you having to bend over and forward and get on all fours... LOL You should be
able to look down and see your dog's eyes easily. Dogs that creep tend to be dogs that are
ahead at all times.

9) Control at all times. Creeping (and almost all other control issues) are usually a
symptom of a bigger problem. Make sure you are requiring your dog to sit and wait to get
out of his box/truck, that the collar is on before he gets out, that you heel nicely to the
line, that you require good manners both in and out of training.

This is good. #9 needs more emphasis, IMHO. It all begins before you even open the crate door!

Also #2 is very good. Some folks are doing multiples when dog can't even hold still for singles.

 

[Renee P.]

You can get in a lot of repetitions in your backyard by sitting your dog on a place board (see Gooddogs post), walk out a short ways maybe even just 10 feet to throw a bumper. Dog might even lurch before you get off the throw, if so go back and re-sit dog. Rinse repeat until dog is still, throw bumper, if dog moves, go re-sit dog, pick up bumper, rinse repeat. Once dog has this down, gradually up the excitement of the throws to tempt dog to move, but only let it retrieve the throw if it is totally steady.

I do this with my dog. She thinks it is a fun game!

If you don't have a place board a mat will do.

 

[mjh345]

I'm having some issues with my dog creeping at the line for marks. How or what is the best way to put an end to this? I have several friends say that in training, if the dog moves in the slightest bit to pick the dog up and not let it get the retrieve. Retry again about 15 minutes later and repeat again if it happens again. In a way it makes since. Another question, is there another way to make the dog understand that no moving at the line equals getting the retrieve?

Why the 15 minute wait to repeat?

 

[waycool]

Its really your sit standard!

I bet if you Have experienced folks evaluate the problem,, you will be told what Mr Ted Shih told me once.....

Your dog doesnt "sit" cause you dont make her....

Thanks Gooser for posting that !

 

[Charles C.]

It may seem like backing up, but I've had some success putting a prong collar tight around the dog's neck with a short tab (above the e-collar) like I would on a puppy. It's much easier to identify and counteract creeping and crouching. And I've got a world class croucher that is unimpressed by sticks and e-collars.

 

[PennyRetrievers]

Ok, so to add to the post, how do you fix this probelm when it's a test-only issue.

My dog won't move a muscle in training, but creeps like the dickiens at a test. Now what?

 

[DarrinGreene]

Quit throwing marks for the dog and re-establish his sit standard in the yard.

 

[BonMallari]

The use of a "place" platform can be very effective in teaching pup that he/she must sit still while the birds are going down. The elevation - 3" is enough - creates a sharp definition of where pup can be w/o getting corrected. The platform need only be just big enough for pup's butt and 4 paws. Any movement means pup falls off the board and gets an immediate correction. Once pup is rock steady on the platform move to ground. Return to the platform as needed. I did not use a place board on my older dog, and he dances a bit at the line - never to the point of being required by the judges to reheel, but a nuisance that is now too ingrained to correct. The 1 year old, who started off with a place board, is - so far - rock steady. The platform I made for him is about 18" square, and is just a piece of 1/2" plywood on 2x4s.
There are plenty of drills to reinforce steady, but the place board is, IMO, the best way to teach the concept.

^^^^^^ I agree

 

[Renee P.]

Ok, so to add to the post, how do you fix this probelm when it's a test-only issue.

My dog won't move a muscle in training, but creeps like the dickiens at a test. Now what?

Train more, run fewer tests, I suspect.

I think the idea is to make good line manners a habit so that when you go to the test your dog is running on muscle memory.

Disclaimer: I'm training my first dog.