[HuntinDawg]

First some background:
My dog sometimes has a momentum problem on blinds. Sometimes in training if he is taking a good line, but is going too slow or is slowing down I will give him a "back" nick "back" and it will help. Other times I will just say "back" again with no nick and it will help.

Now the question: If he was running a Seasoned blind and he was going slowly or decelerating too soon and I said "back" again to restore his momentum, how would the judge view/judge/score this? If he is really on line then stopping him and giving him a loud "back" would likely put him on a worse line to the blind (because the act of sitting on the whistle would put him off-line). In the event that this situation arises I just need to know whether it would be a bad idea from a judging perspective to give him an en-route "back" command.

OK, OK, I know I shouldn't have entered the dog until I had this straightened out, but the problem arose after I sent my money in and since I've paid, his butt is going. It is getting better, but still happens sometimes.

Thanks.

 

[Zack]

How slow does he get down to? Does he pop if he isnt reinforced? I think that is what the judges are going to assume you are trying to prevent. In the end, I think it would just be viewed as a cast, but I bet they would be watching closely to try to figure out why you felt the need to do it.

 

[Steve Hester]

Nothing wrong with giving a back cast to reinforce the back command. As long as the dog takes the cast, then no markdown.

 

[HuntinDawg]

How slow does he get down to? Does he pop if he isnt reinforced? I think that is what the judges are going to assume you are trying to prevent. In the end, I think it would just be viewed as a cast, but I bet they would be watching closely to try to figure out why you felt the need to do it.

No, he doesn't pop, but when he slows down he doesn't run as straight and will need to be stopped and cast...and/or he will begin to hunt and will need to be stopped and cast. It drives me nuts when he does it while running a perfect line because I know if I stop and cast him he won't be on as good of a line as he was originally.

 

[Janet Kimbrough]

Seasoned Dog

Giving a verbal back is not a problem when running a blind in Seasoned. It is a cast plain and simple.

Janet Kimbrough

 

[HuntinDawg]

Re: Seasoned Dog

Giving a verbal back is not a problem when running a blind in Seasoned. It is a cast plain and simple.

Janet Kimbrough

Janet, you understand that this "cast" would be given with the dog already in motion (moving away from the handler), not after a whistle sit, right? Still OK?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[labman52738]

I think if you are going to have to give him a back command, that you stop him and handle him to the blind. The blinds in HRC are only 60 yrds. I feel that if you are giving him a Back command while he is still en route to the blind, just slowing down, I would consider that a form of intimidation. This is just my opinion, whether or not it is right or not, that is how I would judge it.

 

[Margo Ellis]

It is just another cast pray the dog takes it and doesn't go off into left field some place.

In training go to bucket blinds to improve his momentum.

 

[Dman]

I agree with Janet and Margo. Just another cast.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

I think if you are going to have to give him a back command, that you stop him and handle him to the blind. The blinds in HRC are only 60 yrds. I feel that if you are giving him a Back command while he is still en route to the blind, just slowing down, I would consider that a form of intimidation. This is just my opinion, whether or not it is right or not, that is how I would judge it.

Have you read the thread on WRC regarding yelling back enroute on a blind and if that constitutes intimidation?

/Paul

 

[badbullgator]

Is this dog a golden? If it is a golden what are you talking about momentum? If it is a lab just tell the judge he trains with guldens and has learned a slow pace to the blind. :lol:
I am not sure how well what you are talking about would be received in a test. I use a verbal back cast in training sometimes with dogs that are lacking momentum. The way I use it in training however would probably be considered intimidation in a test. Yelling “BACK” at a dog that is running towards a line and not seated waiting for a cast, might be a problem in some judge’s eyes, depending on how the verbal was delivered and the particular judge’s attitude. I am not sure if this is a situation defined in the rule book or not.
As suggested above I would work on building momentum in this dog with taught blinds, pattern blinds, or bucket blinds. Do you run blinds with birds or bumpers? I find that a good way to build momentum in a young dog is to run blinds with birds for that added reward at the end. Using birds with the young dogs also helps build confidence because it makes the finish easier with the scent. I have seen several dogs that were lackluster in their drive to a blind improve greatly with the use of birds. I would also, since I assume you have already entered this dog in a seasoned test, make these momentum builders longer than 60 yards. Teach that dog to run well past 60 yards and you may not have the problem in the test.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Is this dog a golden? If it is a golden what are you talking about momentum? If it is a lab just tell the judge he trains with guldens and has learned a slow pace to the blind. :lol:
I am not sure how well what you are talking about would be received in a test. I use a verbal back cast in training sometimes with dogs that are lacking momentum. The way I use it in training however would probably be considered intimidation in a test. Yelling “BACK” at a dog that is running towards a line and not seated waiting for a cast, might be a problem in some judge’s eyes, depending on how the verbal was delivered and the particular judge’s attitude. I am not sure if this is a situation defined in the rule book or not.
As suggested above I would work on building momentum in this dog with taught blinds, pattern blinds, or bucket blinds. Do you run blinds with birds or bumpers? I find that a good way to build momentum in a young dog is to run blinds with birds for that added reward at the end. Using birds with the young dogs also helps build confidence because it makes the finish easier with the scent. I have seen several dogs that were lackluster in their drive to a blind improve greatly with the use of birds. I would also, since I assume you have already entered this dog in a seasoned test, make these momentum builders longer than 60 yards. Teach that dog to run well past 60 yards and you may not have the problem in the test.

I’ve learned never to have my black dogs honor a golden. It creates tension in the kennel and destroys attitude. Why you can just see the look of frustration on his face having to honor when he realizes it’s a water mark and he could be sitting there awhile with a bird down. On top of that you should never yell anything at your golden because that will hurt their feelings and then they won’t let you brush their hair. A higher level of sensitivity is required.

Not bad suggestions for training the problem, but keep in mind training and judging are two different hats. As a judge I cannot judge a person’s training methods in the test based on my own training methods. I have to judge what I see. I cannot automatically consider yelling back at a dog en route to a blind as intimidation. There has to be something tangible that can be judged.


/Paul

 

[Patti Benton]

I write it down as a VC - verbal cast.

 

[badbullgator]

Not bad suggestions for training the problem, but keep in mind training and judging are two different hats. As a judge I cannot judge a person’s training methods in the test based on my own training methods. I have to judge what I see. I cannot automatically consider yelling back at a dog en route to a blind as intimidation. There has to be something tangible that can be judged.


/Paul

The way I do it in training you would know it was intimidation :wink:

won't let you brush his hair regards :lol: :lol:

 

[Bill Watson]

As a HRC judge I consider a voice cast while the dog is moving OK. I like to see a dog and handler working as a team. I DON'T run Goldens, but I do run Chocolates and all you Black dog people know how much help we "recessive gene" people need. I would also like my dog moving away from me rather than stopping and looking at me. One, I am vertically challenged and Two I am no beauty queen (well, not a queen of any type either). Like Cattle Guard Kimbrough stated "No Sweat"! Bill
________
LIVE SEX

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

The way I do it in training you would know it was intimidation :wink:

won't let you brush his hair regards :lol: :lol:

Well, training does need to be simple and clear. Sounds like you got that down...

:shock: :lol:

/Paul

 

[Miriam Wade]

Is this dog a golden? If it is a golden what are you talking about momentum? If it is a lab just tell the judge he trains with guldens and has learned a slow pace to the blind. :lol:
I am not sure how well what you are talking about would be received in a test. I use a verbal back cast in training sometimes with dogs that are lacking momentum. The way I use it in training however would probably be considered intimidation in a test. Yelling “BACK” at a dog that is running towards a line and not seated waiting for a cast, might be a problem in some judge’s eyes, depending on how the verbal was delivered and the particular judge’s attitude. I am not sure if this is a situation defined in the rule book or not.
As suggested above I would work on building momentum in this dog with taught blinds, pattern blinds, or bucket blinds. Do you run blinds with birds or bumpers? I find that a good way to build momentum in a young dog is to run blinds with birds for that added reward at the end. Using birds with the young dogs also helps build confidence because it makes the finish easier with the scent. I have seen several dogs that were lackluster in their drive to a blind improve greatly with the use of birds. I would also, since I assume you have already entered this dog in a seasoned test, make these momentum builders longer than 60 yards. Teach that dog to run well past 60 yards and you may not have the problem in the test.

I’ve learned never to have my black dogs honor a golden. It creates tension in the kennel and destroys attitude. Why you can just see the look of frustration on his face having to honor when he realizes it’s a water mark and he could be sitting there awhile with a bird down. On top of that you should never yell anything at your golden because that will hurt their feelings and then they won’t let you brush their hair. A higher level of sensitivity is required.

Not bad suggestions for training the problem, but keep in mind training and judging are two different hats. As a judge I cannot judge a person’s training methods in the test based on my own training methods. I have to judge what I see. I cannot automatically consider yelling back at a dog en route to a blind as intimidation. There has to be something tangible that can be judged.


/Paul

You're both just jealous because water marks for Goldens test long-term memory! :wink:

Well Coiffed Fluffy Regards-

M

 

[red devil]

I see a lot of black dogs HAVING to honor the swampies... Good Gawd almighty ... need to have a dog that CAN pick up all them birds the black ones can't find....

I'm with Bill, if a handler feels the need to reinforce a "back" during a seasoned blind, I may note it but I'm generally not going to penalize unless something else is going on.

Finished .... different story

 

[HuntinDawg]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Something is going on with the e-mail updates. I didn't know anyone had replied to the thread. No, he isn't a golden. He is a yellow lab. Again, thanks for the replies. He is running blinds and pattern blinds 100-150 yards. However, momentum is sometimes an issue. I gave him the verbal "en-route" back yesterday and he picked up the pace...and I thought "I wonder if that would be OK in a hunt test?" It isn't that I'm planning to do it as much as wondering if it would be OK if I felt it was needed.

 

[Uncle Bill]

Have you read the thread on WRC regarding yelling back enroute on a blind and if that constitutes intimidation?

/Paul

You may be quoting apples to oranges here. WRC is primarily an AKC BB, so the suggestions there have little to do with an HRC hunt test, and this is one example.

Seldom is 'any' spoken word from the line marked as intimidation, unless the handler starts screaming. I've heard a pretty loud "NO", or "SIT" used in a test, and it was only a command. If it had been an AKC test, the judges would have closed the book.

Having a dog do what is being stated by the original poster, is again another illustration of not teaching the blind retrieve with the proper basics. I see the "running back" utilized fequently in both seasoned and finished, but we are told it's just to be viewed as another cast.

It was my hope the 60 yard blind in seasoned might cause the handler to realize they need to prepare for blind running better than trying to coax their dog to do a sort of 'hunt-em-up.' Over the years I've seen some pretty good finished dogs run blinds while looking over their shoulder, as if constantly asking "Am I doing OK?".

I had a finished judge ask me one time how I taught my dogs to run such good blinds. I said we start by teaching 3-handed handling, to which he responded, "What's that?" Then we go on to various pattern programs like the T and TT, and for water work we do de-cheating and swim-by. All of these dog training basics were completely unknown to him. Sadly, I think far too many in the HRC program fall into that lack of training knowledge.

UB