RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Some of this info was copied from another site, pasted here.

Flight A 101

Series 1 67 Passed
Series 2 46 Passed
Series 3 23 Passed
Series 4 20 Move to Upland

Flight B 96

Series 1 82 Passed
Series 2 58 Passed
Series 3 26 Passed
Series 4 16 Move to Upland :D

Flight C 97

Series 1 73 Passed
Series 2 43 Passed
Series 3 26 Passed
Series 4 20 Move to Upland

Flight D 94

Series 1 47 Passed
Series 2 22 Passed
Series 3 21 Passed
Series 4 15 Move to Upland

Total 71 dogs going to the 5th series - Upland

All dogs are winners. Black dogs are my Favorites.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
653 Posts
OK I just don't understand how the pass rate is so low. This is not meant to be a "The grand sucks thread". I am generally curious because I am considering running them myself next year. I don't have a lot of experience with them. I watched 3 series a few years back and have kept up with them over the years watching vidoes..ect.. I have a dog that has passed 3 master nationals in a row but the pass rate with them is usually around 30-40%. Also in general I thinking master tests are a bit harder the HRC Finished. So it seems strange that the Grand is such a step up from Finished tests.

There are certainly many dogs there just not ready to pass a grand but I have to think a good portion are so why do so few pass? Is it small little things or is it lack of ability? Where do most dogs go out? Is it not marking the birds, blinds? Of those that do it a lot do you find it frustrating?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,250 Posts
One thing Nate is in the Grand, the scores are cumulative, whereas in the MN you start over every series.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
653 Posts
One thing Nate is in the Grand, the scores are cumulative, whereas in the MN you start over every series.
The Master National is cumulative. One dog can have a handle in the first series and another can have a handle in the 2nd and both will be carried to the 3rd series but a third dog that has handles in both will be dropped. Same with blinds. Same can be said for Master Tests and finished tests. If you handle in one series the next better be clean.

Is there something different about the grand scoring that is different then a Finished test? I mean besides the standard? Again this is not an attack on the grand but when a good pro brings in 12-15 well breed and very well trained dogs and comes away with 2 grand passes you are like &*(&*)^&*(&* what does a guy have to do to pass. Is the standard so tight that luck comes into play?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
309 Posts
Nate, there are so many variables that go into the set ups at that level, something as simple as a 180 degree wind shift, with the picture the dogs have of a mark, can cause a serious beat down. I was there, out in the third. The corn field test pass rate was very high the first couple of days. A change in conditions made it a very difficult series the last two days. That's the way it goes!! Look at D Flight pass rate out of the water test in the first series. That was a killer too. Didn't see too many dogs do it clean. I did stand next to one who did it though!!! PM me if you have any questions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
If one wants to strive to obtain a Grand title, they are better off seeking the pros that are very successful in that game. Very few AMs pass, lots of time and money to get dropped for something that wouldnt matter in any other game. Its a special title no doubt but too risky for my pocket book to go at it without the pro advantage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
The Master National is cumulative. One dog can have a handle in the first series and another can have a handle in the 2nd and both will be carried to the 3rd series but a third dog that has handles in both will be dropped. Same with blinds. Same can be said for Master Tests and finished tests. If you handle in one series the next better be clean.

Is there something different about the grand scoring that is different then a Finished test? I mean besides the standard? Again this is not an attack on the grand but when a good pro brings in 12-15 well breed and very well trained dogs and comes away with 2 grand passes you are like &*(&*)^&*(&* what does a guy have to do to pass. Is the standard so tight that luck comes into play?
That's just not true. A dog could legitimately handle in every series and still pass. Been there, seen it personally.

HRC weekend tests aren't scored. There are no numbers. Its simply pass/fail. The Grand on the other hand is scored. 0,1,or 2. The scores are cumulative. You can only score ones once and you do not have enough points to continue on. A big hunt on a mark, a handle on a mark irregardless of cleanliness, reason, or proximity to a fall, a loose blind, or loose line manners will get you ones every time. 2 cast refusals, an excessive creep, vocalization in any amount, or a big hunt and a handle in the same series will get your homebound ticket punched.
There is some luck involved, but more than that you can't handle in a series that nobody else is handling because there's gonna be one mark that everybody is handling on that grand judges do not take into consideration and you're going to need it there. There's no reason to be scared...historically the pass rate is around 12%...it is what it is...not many pass. Just gotta be OK with that before you go running it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,617 Posts
There's just not that much wiggly room in the Grand, You get 1's (marginal pass) and your done. You also got four sets of judges thus, they don't take into account what might've happened in other series, what you might've excelled in. They only care what you do under them, in their series, and the judges usually are very close in their thinking, so if they both give a 1 (you've got problems.. gulp) Then to determine if you move on they add different judges numbers, and they're aren't many numbers to add, just 0, 1 and 2, not many numbers to come up with a passing pt #. Where as You've got 1-10 to average in the master national. Is there luck involved, heck yes, but just to the point that you got to be good enough for the judges to give you 2's, which means you have to be just about perfect, in all 4 series, and keep your butt to the ground on the upland; to pass the grand. But hey there's 2 a year, and you've got ~10 years, for a dog (20 times); so you just got to be almost perfect twice ;). 2/20 =10%, and the pass rate =12% so every once in awhile some dogs-handler must get lucky ;). We won't even take into consideration amateur pass rates, wouldn't want to scare yah ;).

Grand scoring
1st must have judge combined (2) Score to continue =1+1,1+2, 2+2, how often to you think 1+2 happens?
2nd must have combines (6), Score to continue =(1+1, 2+2),(1+2,1+2) (2+2,2+2)
3rd must have (9) Lowest score to continue (1+1, 1+2, 2+2)
4th must have (13) Lowest score to continue (1+1, 1+2, 2+2, 2+2)
Total possible points for 1-4 series = 16 so theoretically you've got 3 pts to play around with, basically if 2 judge-sets give you 1+1 your done ;).
You get passed that, you start to pray your dog doesn't break on the upland flush, which of course is No problem; after you've been running tests for a week, with no collar ;).

So how many are we gonna lose in the Upland? I bet (~3-4 per flight), So I'm guessing ~63 qualifiers? Any other takers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,060 Posts
There's just not that much wiggly room in the Grand, You get 1's (marginal pass) and your done. You also got four sets of judges thus, they don't take into account what might've happened in other series, what you might've excelled in, they only care what you do under them, in their series, and the judges usually are very close in their thinking, so if they both give a 1 ( you've got problems..gulp) Then to determine if you move on they add different judges numbers, and they're aren't many numbers to add, just 0, 1 and 2, not many number to come up with a passing %. Where as You've got 1-10 to average in the master national. Is there luck involved, heck yes, but just to the point that you got to be good enough for the judges to give you 2's, which means you have to be just about perfect, in all 5 series, to pass the grand. But hey there's 2 a year, and you've got ~10 years, for a dog (20 times); so you just got to be almost perfect twice ;). 2/20 =10%, and the pass rate =12% so every once in awhile some dogs-handler must get lucky ;). We won't even take into consideration amateur pass rates, wouldn't want to scare yah ;).

Knowing all this... I still cant wait to get back to the grand!!! We've gone out in the 4th at Wisconsin and OK both times on the blind!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,055 Posts
Wind, shadows,ect are beyond anyone's control but all play a factor. Cover takes a beating after that many dogs run the same test. The "tough series" may not be so hard. The one time I ran, the tough series was first. There is a lot of luck involved for most dogs. There is also an elite group of dogs that pass regardless of conditions. These dogs are truly exceptional.

There are a LOT of dogs with one Grand pass for a reason.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I started this thread, but have not seen the final list of passes. I did however get a call from my dogs Trainer - Handler, Steve Earick. He passed 2 of 6 dogs, 1 of them mine, the other was her littermate sister who achieved her GRHRCH today.

Congratulations to Steve, Tilly on her 1st pass, and GRHRCH Bourbon Belle.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
653 Posts
That's just not true. A dog could legitimately handle in every series and still pass. Been there, seen it personally.

HRC weekend tests aren't scored. There are no numbers. Its simply pass/fail. The Grand on the other hand is scored. 0,1,or 2. The scores are cumulative. You can only score ones once and you do not have enough points to continue on. A big hunt on a mark, a handle on a mark irregardless of cleanliness, reason, or proximity to a fall, a loose blind, or loose line manners will get you ones every time. 2 cast refusals, an excessive creep, vocalization in any amount, or a big hunt and a handle in the same series will get your homebound ticket punched.
There is some luck involved, but more than that you can't handle in a series that nobody else is handling because there's gonna be one mark that everybody is handling on that grand judges do not take into consideration and you're going to need it there. There's no reason to be scared...historically the pass rate is around 12%...it is what it is...not many pass. Just gotta be OK with that before you go running it.
Never said you couldn't handel in every series. I said that they are accumulative.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
412 Posts
Congratulations to Tilly, a major feat!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
Nate, there are so many variables that go into the set ups at that level, something as simple as a 180 degree wind shift, with the picture the dogs have of a mark, can cause a serious beat down. I was there, out in the third. The corn field test pass rate was very high the first couple of days. A change in conditions made it a very difficult series the last two days. That's the way it goes!! Look at D Flight pass rate out of the water test in the first series. That was a killer too. Didn't see too many dogs do it clean. I did stand next to one who did it though!!! PM me if you have any questions.
Hammer walked into that series with an 8 and walked out on a rope!

I think that they give you the 1st pass then hook you into coming back for more!

Huge difference between the Grand and MN. One has a standard and you know what to expect. The other is "supposed" to be scored the exact same as a weekend test.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
I was at the Grand. Had a blast and come very close to getting a second pass and title. Went out in the 4th series. Had a marginal blind in the 2nd series. then had to handle on a 50 yard mark in the 4th. Way it goes. I will be back. From what I've been told MN is judged at Master level, the Grand is judged at Grand level, not Finished level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
371 Posts
We are so disappointed. Rooster went through all 4 series without problems. If he had passed upland he would have received his title, he passed last year. During the upland he pointed the bird and would not break point to flush. Rooster is a steady as a rock pointing lab, waiting for his owner to flush and shoot the bird so he can retrieve. In his mind he did an ace job but it will not get the GRHRCH ribbon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
I started this thread, but have not seen the final list of passes. I did however get a call from my dogs Trainer - Handler, Steve Earick. He passed 2 of 6 dogs, 1 of them mine, the other was her littermate sister who achieved her GRHRCH today.

Congratulations to Steve, Tilly on her 1st pass, and GRHRCH Bourbon Belle.
Congrats to all involved! You have got to be proud and have every right to be. I got to see all of the series but the upland and there were definitely no gimme's and the tests were tough. Lot's of very talented dogs and handlers got dropped along the way. Again, congrats!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
We are so disappointed. Rooster went through all 4 series without problems. If he had passed upland he would have received his title, he passed last year. During the upland he pointed the bird and would not break point to flush. Rooster is a steady as a rock pointing lab, waiting for his owner to flush and shoot the bird so he can retrieve. In his mind he did an ace job but it will not get the GRHRCH ribbon.
Ugh! I know that's got to be a tough pill to swallow..
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top