[ChrisRobt]

I apprenticed a local master test this weekend; due to the test setup, all handlers handled on the first (land) series-half on the "go" bird. After the dog was sent for the go bird, the judges asked the handlers if they wanted to give up the "gun"; all but one lady happily handed it over. I watched that lady closely on the water series (she was one of 7/23 invited back to the second series) where she again kept the gun as her dog picked up the three marks. She held the gun over the dog's head as she lined him for each mark and that dog watched that gun very closely. I believe she used the gun in training as an "aide" but could not prove it. What do experienced judges think about this???

Christine (newly minted master HT judge)

 

[DKR]

Was this an actual gun or a piece of lumber?


Why do think it is an aide?

 

[ChrisRobt]

Not a real gun but wood carved to look like one...

Christine

 

[Howard N]

Kinda like HRC? Going where the gun is pointed?

I'm not an AKC master judge so I can't say anything authoritive, but I don't believe there's a rule against it.

 

[Brad B]

Not a judge but...I know some who would call that as unsafe gun handling.

I would not say it was a "training aide" but it could be construed as being intimidating to the dog.

 

[Bubba]

From the description that would be Sharon running that biggo Chessie. He is real used to having lumber waved at him, no intimidation there.

Just a guess regards

Bubba

 

[DKR]

Why do think it is an aide?

 

[lablover]

It's legal. Many times in HT handlers are asked to carry and shoulder the gun at each mark as it goes down. It doean's have to be a real gun, but usually is a single shot, but can be a wooden copy. If the gun is used to intimidate the dog, you will be dropped.

Master judge regards,

 

[Guest]

It's legal. Many times in HT handlers are asked to carry and shoulder the gun at each mark as it goes down. It doean's have to be a real gun, but usually is a single shot, but can be a wooden copy. If the gun is used to intimidate the dog, you will be dropped.

Master judge regards,

Agree.

It's also illegal to point the birds out with the gun prior to calling for them by swinging the gun to each station. And it's also generally unacceptable to hold the gun by the very end (NOT shouldering or safely holding it) and point out the birds at any time.

Some people use the gun or all kinds of things, good and bad.

 

[ChrisRobt]

Let me clarify my question...

I know it is perfectly legal to shoulder the gun when the birds are going down ("shooting at them") and to carry it as the marks are retrieved. I was concerned by the dog's reaction to the gun held over it's head that the handler might somehow use the gun in training to reprimand the dog (for what, I don't know). I wouldn't even had noticed except for the way the dog was looking at that "gun" barrel over it's head. If the handler never used the gun in training to discipline the dog, it certainly was a distraction as she was lining the dog up for the marks.

Christine

 

[Bill Watson]

Well, what if she put her hand over the dogs head to send her? What if IN TRAINING she just knocked the bejeebers out of the dog with her hand? Did the dog look intimidated, did it flinch, duck or flair from the gun? How do you train?

As a new judge are you looking for ways to fail dogs or are you looking at the quality of of the dogs work? You don't need to know how that person trains, you just need to judge what you see, not what you think.

I'm not being ugly, just giving advice that May make you a better judge and will get you asked back to judge more often. I no longer run or judge AKC trials or HT, just HRC and I'm getting a little long in the tooth at that. I have sat in the chair for over 2 3/4 years of WEEKENDs (175 to 180 weekends over the last 20 years and I have loved every minute of watching those wonderful dogs (and a few DAH folks) work for the love of picking up things. Good luck in your future judging and thank you for doing it. Congratulations, Bill
________
VAPORITE HOW TO

 

[goldeneye]

This issue came up at a seminar two weeks ago. Jerry Mann said that the gun MUST be used in a real way, NOT held over the dogs head. Period.

ILLEGAL according to Mr. Mann.

 

[wallyk]

The way I understand hunt tests is they are to simulate actual hunting conditions. The senarios usually go that your hunting partners are in place before you arrive etc. etc. Birds start flying just when you arrive, now I for one don't like anyone pointing a loaded gun in my general direction, which is happening in this case, even though it may be a piece of wood, you are told to handle it as a real shotgun. Therefore unsafe gun safety and you are out. Another point, it is treated as a loaded gun, would you shoot a shotgun right over your dogs head? Not me :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[T. Mac]

The bigger question for you as an apprentice, is why did the judges allow the handler the option of NOT carrying a gun? The regs say that the handler (in SR and MR) MUST carry a gun at all times except during an honor or on blinds.

T. Mac

 

[Guest]

The bigger question for you as an apprentice, is why did the judges allow the handler the option of NOT carrying a gun? The regs say that the handler (in SR and MR) MUST carry a gun at all times except during an honor or on blinds.

T. Mac

Not anymore. in master and senior you only "have" to hold it as the marks fall. Then it's at the judge's discretion and most that know the rule change are glad for you to set it down once your dog is released to retrieve.

 

[T. Mac]

Well, Dang it. I sure wish AKC would send out revised regs whenever they change them. And just checked, the regs they have posted on their website still says as I posted.

T. Mac

 

[Wyldfire]

Page 37 of current regs:



Hunting Tests are a team effort between dog and
handler. Except when specifically prohibited by the
Regulations, handlers are required to handle shotguns at the
Master and Senior levels. However, when in the opinion of
the judges it can be done safely, the handler may put the gun
down in a manner directed by the judges after he or she has
sent the dog for the first bird to be picked up,

 

[Wyldfire]

Above was copy and pasted from the AKC website.

 

[AmiableLabs]

Not anymore. in master and senior you only "have" to hold it as the marks fall. Then it's at the judge's discretion and most that know the rule change are glad for you to set it down once your dog is released to retrieve.

And thank God for it! A dose of common sense hunting reality in AKC HTs -- "hunters put their gun down to handle their dog."

NOW, if we could only get the AKC to wake up to another reality -- "hunters talk quietly to their dogs when the birds are in the air, reminding them to mark and to sit still."

(And some people wonder why handlers like UKC/HRC better. :?)

 

[DKR]

Since this was a hunt test;

If it had been a real gun with real ammo would it have been a safe/wise situation if she had actually shot the birds?