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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Please let me start off by saying I totally understand the need for more qualified judges and am sympathetic to all of those that are charged with securing qualified judges for your club's hunt test. The ever changing eligibility requirements each organization has can be maddening to try to keep straight and finding qualified judges is always trying. As an AKC and NAHRA judge, I always feel bad saying no and as someone that has chaired several tests, I understand how difficult it can be to secure good, fair, capable, interested and qualified judges.

That being said, does anyone know what the ramifications are to a club, to the judges or to the participants if a club conducts a test with a judge(s) that don't meet all the current required judging eligibility? I believe all of the hunt test organizations (AKC, UKC and NAHRA, etc) keep track of judging points, tests, seminars and apprenticeships but I don't believe that any of them track judges as handlers yet all the organizations have requirements of judges as handlers also. Keeping track of the handler requirements is left to the charge of each individual club. I'm not sure that everyone understands that and is following those requirements. I'm curious to know what each organization would do if a club held a test that did not meet all the requirements. Naturally, the most likely time this would come up is from a disgruntled handler that for any reason didn't pass a test and took it upon themselves to go on a search mission on the internet to find those judges' last handler qualifications.

*edited to add that, no, I did not get dropped this past weekend and have no Monday-after-a-test bone to pick.
 

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The AKC will not approve a judges panel if the judges points don't add up and if their seminar/test is not up to date. Now if you have a last minute change there is not much you can do.

Dealing with judges who remain active is probably on the clubs responsibility and will be a nightmare.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
It is on the clubs and it is a nightmare, Mike. The AKC will approve based on points, etc. but they don't track the handler requirement (both judges having passed at the level being judged or higher within the last 7 years). That task is left to the club.
 

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I would imagine a fine to club, all qualifications recended, judges suspended if they are qual to judge any other level, maybe club suspended from holding tests.
Maybe nothing. AKC doesn't seem to care if all requirements of a mh test aren't met.
 

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Doesn't the rule state that a judge needs to have handled a dog at the level he/she is judging, and received a passing score? So technically, a handler could handle a dog only one series at an event and meet the requirement to judge that stake? Also, you do not have to be listed to handle a dog in a stake either? It seems then that it would be impossible for a club to verify if a judge actually meets the handling requirements.
If a person runs Masters and has passes in Masters, but had never run a Senior, could this person judge a Senior?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Section 6. Judges’ Eligibility. Anyone at least 21 years of age and in good standing with the American Kennel Club may be approved to judge a Hunting Test subject to the eligibility requirements in force at the time. While the AKC approves individuals to judge based on eligibility requirements, it is the responsibility of the clubs to determine the “qualifications” of each prospective judge by researching experience accumulated through training, actual hunting over dogs, handling dogs in field events and prior judging activities. Clubs may at their discretion develop a questionnaire in order to request background information on prospective judges. Prior to Becoming an Approved Judge. For new judges after January 1, 2012: (1) Seminar: Attend an AKC Retriever Hunting Test seminar. This first seminar allows an individual to judge for three years assuming the apprenticeship requirement is met. (2) Apprenticeship: Individuals that have not judged prior to January 1, 2012 must successfully apprentice at least once at the level being judged. (Club’s responsibility to monitor.) Prior to Becoming Eligible to Judge the Senior/ Master Test. Individuals that have not judged Senior or Master tests prior to January 1, 2012 must first have judged at least twice at the testing level immediately below before they are eligible to judge a Senior or Master tests. (Club’s responsibility to monitor.) Maintaining One’s Ability to Judge: (1) Second Seminar: If an individual has judged within three years of attending the first seminar, that individual is required to attend a second seminar to maintain the ability to continue to judge. If an individual has not judged within three years of attending the first seminar, another “first” seminar is required prior to being allowed to judge. However, if you have earned six (6) points at the Master level, you do not need to take the second seminar. Anyone that has attended two or more seminars (one prior to judging and one after having judged) is exempt from any further seminar attendance. (2) Written Test: After the second seminar (one prior to judging and one after having judged), an individual must complete a written self-administered AKC test every four years and pass the test with a score of 90% or better. (3) Must remain an Active Judge: An individual must judge at any level at least once every four (4) years to maintain eligibility. Individuals who have not judged within the four-year period of the mandatory written examination will be required to attend the Seminar. (4) Must Remain an Active Handler: An individual must have handled a qualifying dog at the level to be judged or higher within seven (7) years of the date of the event. (Club’s responsibility to monitor.) Note: Current judges who do not meet this require-ment have until January 1, 2014 to come into compliance. Judges Panel Qualifications: (1) The combined number of points required for the two Judges in any division or level shall be six (6) at that level or higher. Judges accumulate points for each level judged at the completion of an assignment. (2) Handling Experience: At the Master test level and each division thereof, one Judge shall have qualified a dog or dogs (5) times at the Master level. At the Senior and Junior test levels and each division thereof, one Judge shall have qualified a dog or dogs four (4) times either at the level being judged or at a higher test level. Monitoring the qualifications of judges is the responsibility of the event-giving club.
 

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There really isn't a way to track or verify qualifying passes at this time. The AKC doesn't keep that information nor do the clubs.

If you search entry express it records handlers recorded in the catalog. In the case of multiple handlers bing listed for a given dog, they list all of them whether they actually handled the dog or not. Then you get the situation where one handler runs the dog in one series and another handler runs it in the next series (both handlers are listed in the catalog). Who gets credit for handling the dog for a qualification? One, both or none since they didn't handle the dog through a complete test.
 

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There is a way to track their passes ask and
hope they have the integrity to tell the truth
 

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I would imagine a fine to club, all qualifications recended, judges suspended if they are qual to judge any other level, maybe club suspended from holding tests.
Maybe nothing. AKC doesn't seem to care if all requirements of a mh test aren't met.
A club, few years back, ran into time trouble and one master flight did not complete a 3rd series but awarded passes anyway. When AKC found out - ribbons and qualifications forfeited, club had to refund entry fees, was fined and HT Se'cy banned from HT participation for 5 (?) years.

As for judge qualifications that the club has to track, djansma is correct. Ask the prospective judge, confirm judges' qualification in writing and carry on. (AKC stopped requiring judges' confirmation forum/letter. Good idea to do it anyway.)
 

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At the judges seminar that I attended this past spring, Jerry Mann said that if it is discovered that a judge does not meet the qualifications and was slated to judge, the ramifications would not be taken out on the dogs/handlers/passes etc. The AKC will deal with the judge in question, and possibly the club, and may include a suspension. However, in an emergency situation, the next most qualified person is allowed to step in...so, they may not meet the judging qualification, but its allowed in an emergency.
 

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I see a test one entry express from this summer that had a judge that didn't meet the 7 year handling requirement....
 

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A club, few years back, ran into time trouble and one master flight did not complete a 3rd series but awarded passes anyway. When AKC found out - ribbons and qualifications forfeited, club had to refund entry fees, was fined and HT Se'cy banned from HT participation for 5 (?) years.

As for judge qualifications that the club has to track, djansma is correct. Ask the prospective judge, confirm judges' qualification in writing and carry on. (AKC stopped requiring judges' confirmation forum/letter. Good idea to do it anyway.)
As I recall the judges were suspended for 5 yrs too.
I had several friends who had their qualification taken back. They got entry fees refunded but no travel expenses.
 

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Not my place to do so...we all have skeleton's in our closet, and on this topic, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Then why bring it up in the first place? I'm sure the club would like to know if you have information regarding a judge that could potentially get them in trouble.
 

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At the judges seminar that I attended this past spring, Jerry Mann said that if it is discovered that a judge does not meet the qualifications and was slated to judge, the ramifications would not be taken out on the dogs/handlers/passes etc. The AKC will deal with the judge in question, and possibly the club, and may include a suspension. However, in an emergency situation, the next most qualified person is allowed to step in...so, they may not meet the judging qualification, but its allowed in an emergency.
Well, that seems reasonable. What a surprise.
 

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Then why bring it up in the first place? I'm sure the club would like to know if you have information regarding a judge that could potentially get them in trouble.

Everyone out there can look at EE and do their own research, it's not like you have to be a rocket scientist to use the site.
 

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Everyone out there can look at EE and do their own research, it's not like you have to be a rocket scientist to use the site.
I'll then ask you again...what was your point for doing your own research on whether or not a club/judge was following all the rules or not, then essentially posting that information on a public forum with no intent of letting that club know. Irresponsible.
 

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Everyone out there can look at EE and do their own research, it's not like you have to be a rocket scientist to use the site.
You might want to think about that for a while. EE shows handlers who are listed for a given dog. Some dogs have multiple handlers listed. Nowhere is it recorded who actually walked to the line with the dog.

Then you also have to remember that not every club used EE. Retriever Entry and paper entries were also in use during the last 7 years so those won't be included in EE searches either.

Nowhere is there an official record of "Who" actually brought a dog to the line and ran it. Until there is some method of official record keeping, you're simply going to have to take the Judges word for it.
 
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