[Lil Dikens Kennels]

In a SH or MH test the dog is sent on the go bird and picks it up,instead of returning to the handler the dog goes to the second mark and without dropping the first bird,get them both in his mouth and then returns to the line.
How is this judged and why ?

 

[labman52738]

He should be judged with very high scores in efficiency!!! Honestly I don't know how you would score this. I heard a few people talking about the diversion bird in HRC, how a dog has stopped and picked up both birds. Several different judges said that it was fine, so long as they don't switch one bird for the other. I would like to hear other peoples experiences with this.

 

[ramblinmaxx]

Ken,
How big a dog do you have? My dogs really don't have mouths big enough to carry 2 ducks at once. I assume this is an Hypothetical question, correct?

Marty

 

[Lil Dikens Kennels]

No. I have a client that trains on my property and her female does this. She has it down that she either grabsthe birds by the wing or the neck,it is quite funny to watch but her owner is not amused.

So far she has been dropped for switching but only does it on tight marks
The problem here is the AKC ruled do not have an answer for this other than judges discretion

 

[ramblinmaxx]

Ken,
That is funny. I guess his dog has time management in mind when she retrieves. BG used to try to pick up more than one bumper when we did the mini pile and I guess that was her idea, pick up two that way we can move on to something more fun !

Marty

 

[Guest]

It would be scored as the dog having retrieved two marks.

I had a dog actually do this at a test. Only, of the two birds she picked up, one happened to be a rotten, nasty old rotting bird that was on the shore en route to a pretty difficult memory bird.

It was actually quite impressive. She was on a really nice line down the shore and took a hard left and started hunting. I sat patiently thinking maybe she was caught in dragback... Instead, within a few moments, she picked up a bird...

I thought "oh, well, not her fault a bird was out there, judges will score it and we'll be fine"...

WELL.... Instead of turning around she PROCEEDED to shore, up and out, WITH THE FIRST BIRD IN HER MOUTH... and then I thought "what is she doing???" And then I thought "I wonder if this could be a switch???"...

She went right to the original memory bird, took a few seconds and got both birds in her mouth and returned with both of them.

I was really impressed. Like she KNEW that gross bird wasn't the one to get and she knew she needed to get the one I asked her to get...

Anyway... Plenty of dogs can fit two birds in their mouth one way or another. I guess it helps when one is a rotten skinny sogging wet bird.

-K

 

[Guest]

No. I have a client that trains on my property and her female does this. She has it down that she either grabsthe birds by the wing or the neck,it is quite funny to watch but her owner is not amused.

So far she has been dropped for switching but only does it on tight marks
The problem here is the AKC ruled do not have an answer for this other than judges discretion

They do... The only thing close is a switch and a switch can only be ruled when the dog drops one bird and delivers another. It's perfectly legal for a dog to go out and get all three birds and deliver them... Odds are it's not going to happen! LOL

 

[lablover]

In my mind it's not a switch because you said the dog picked up the first bird, THEN came and picked up the second bird.
For a switch, you have to establish a hunt on a bird, then leave that bird to pick up another. That's not what you said happened.
I'd call the dog back, and ask the handler what he/she is planning on doing about that. :wink:

 

[Andy Carlson]

I knew somebody who's dog would pick up two birds. At a Master test she told the judges that this would happen and their reply was as long as she does not drop the first bird to pick up the second bird it is not a switch and is legal. And what they did was put a tiny piece of tape on the leg of one bird - that way they would know when the dog delivered which bird was which and if a "switch" occurred or not. It did not! :wink:

Andy

 

[Frenchy]

If we plant a blind with a bunch of birds during training, my Gloden will always bring two back....Heck I've even seen him get THREE!


Never in the course of a multiple set of marks though. I'm not sure how that would be scored, especially with regards to switching, but I would think he could be marked down in trainability. But I'm not a judge, it is an interesting question though.

 

[Mike Perry]

Technically the dog has completed 2 retrieves and should be scored as such. I've seen it several times where the dog would pick up the diversion bird while returning from a mark and deliver both to hand which is what is required by rule in both HT venues.
Rules say proceed directly to the area of fall, establish a hunt and retrieve with delivery to hand. If the dog has such good memory that can mark 2 AOF so be it.
If a judge scores it any other way, it is grounds for a discussion with the committee IMHO.

 

[Backcast]

I'm very green inall of this, but shouldn't Trainability be scored very low for this? Possibly a "0"?

 

[Guest]

I'm very green inall of this, but shouldn't Trainability be scored very low for this? Possibly a "0"?

Why? Only reason trainability should be low would be if handler kept calling dog and dog ignored handler in order to get the other bird.

I would actually be very impressed with it if the dog actually MARKED it versus winded it coming in with the first bird.

-K

 

[K G]

The only thing close is a switch and a switch can only be ruled when the dog drops one bird and delivers another.

From the current AKC HT regs/guidelines, Part III, The Abilities of Retrievers, Section III, Perseverance/Courage/Hunting, paragraph four:

"Switching implies that a dog gives up in its hunt after a search, leaves the area, and goes for another bird, or, when it drops a bird that it is retrieving and goes for another."

The dog does not have to deliver the bird it goes for in order to be eliminated for a switch.

kg

 

[Tim Carrion]

Years ago in a Master my dog retrieved the "poison bird" while returning from the water blind and the judges were very interested in the order of the 2 birds in his mouth :roll: . I still got a ribbon.

Tim

 

[Russ]

The only thing close is a switch and a switch can only be ruled when the dog drops one bird and delivers another.

From the current AKC HT regs/guidelines, Part III, The Abilities of Retrievers, Section III, Perseverance/Courage/Hunting, paragraph four:

"Switching implies that a dog gives up in its hunt after a search, leaves the area, and goes for another bird, or, when it drops a bird that it is retrieving and goes for another."

The dog does not have to deliver the bird it goes for in order to be eliminated for a switch.

kg

The dog did not give up the hunt, though, because the hunt was completed, so it is not a switch. The dog is dropped for not delivering all birds to hand. It is still out in my opinion.

 

[Backcast]

Why? Only reason trainability should be low would be if handler kept calling dog and dog ignored handler in order to get the other bird.

I would actually be very impressed with it if the dog actually MARKED it versus winded it coming in with the first bird.
-K[/quote]

Again, I'm just a newbie, but I would ask "What standard do you train to?" If you told a judge ahead of time that your dog was going to pick them both up then that's awesome, but other than that, it reminds me of the old Pee Wee Herman "I planned it that way" routine - something uncontroled that just worked out well.

Very respectfully submitted.

 

[K G]

The dog dropped the bird it was retrieving to go for another bird.

Giving up the hunt is not the issue. Switching is. That's why I put the section of the sentence pertinent to this discussion in bold type.

kg

 

[Bubba]

In a SH or MH test the dog is sent on the go bird and picks it up,instead of returning to the handler the dog goes to the second mark and without dropping the first bird,get them both in his mouth and then returns to the line.
How is this judged and why ?

Not seeing a switch here regards

Bubba

 

[Guest]

Why? Only reason trainability should be low would be if handler kept calling dog and dog ignored handler in order to get the other bird.

I would actually be very impressed with it if the dog actually MARKED it versus winded it coming in with the first bird.
-K

Again, I'm just a newbie, but I would ask "What standard do you train to?" If you told a judge ahead of time that your dog was going to pick them both up then that's awesome, but other than that, it reminds me of the old Pee Wee Herman "I planned it that way" routine - something uncontroled that just worked out well.

Very respectfully submitted.

It has nothing to do with a standard in training. When you go to the line, the judges should not make any assumptions about how you train or handle your dog. They should simply apply the rules to your and your dog's performance. The situation described is not addressed in the rulebook and therefore is perfectly legal as long as the dog delivers the birds to hand. And it doesn't matter what you plan or intend... Sometimes there are cases, which MAY be trainability IN YOUR MIND, but are not trainability in the judges' books. A good case of this, which is annoying, but it happens and doesn't indicate a terrible dog... Is when you line your dog up on bird a, he goes out part way takes a turn and nails bird b. If it happens RELIGIOUSLY then it's a training problem FOR YOU and YOUR DOG. But it has no bearing on trainability at a test... I have dogs do it a couple of times a year, but it doesn't mean they are bad dogs or poorly trained. If they did it every time, sure... But, again, if they did it EVERY time, it still would not make a huge difference in their scoring at a test (in some cases, they may get marked down in perserverance).

-K