[Kenneth Niles Bora]

I had been taught by my grizzled old mentors that the initial send on a blind retrieve is the first handle of that task. The exact line achieved by here and heel, getting the dogs back bone in perfect line to the destination is the perfect example of a "Literal Cast". In reading all of RTF this past few days I am wondering if I am correct. In your opinion, if a dog lines a blind retrieve how many times has it been handled? The answer to this may possibly be the answer to a couple of other threads wouldn't it?

it has not been handled

it has been handled one time

Ken Bora

 

[4 Labs]

I say once but, I'm not a pro

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

If the dog lines the blind, it has not been handled, it has been cast.

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

Not sure it makes any difference. Lining the blind is a perfect job if it is a straight line. Theroretically your initial send is your first cast . Cast refusals and slipped whistles are serious to moderate faults. A no go at the line is usually considered a serious fault.

 

[BAWANA]

I would think the dog is being handled from the holding blind to the line.
on the line the dog is being handled with ques here heal dead whatever.
IF you do things right you are a good handler, if you do things poor you are a poor handler. so when the dog is under judgment you are the handler and you are handling the dog. jmho

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

How many times has a dog been handled on marks if it has been lined and released 3 times?

 

[Ken Newcomb]

In my worthless opinion, a dog is cast from the line and then it is handled, if need, by various other casts.

 

[Dman]

If the dog lines the blind, it has not been handled, it has been cast.

I agree!

 

[Evan]

If the dog lines the blind, it has not been handled, it has been cast.

Oh, crap! Now you'll arouse UB's ire! :lol:

Okay; a handle is a cast. No, a cast is a handle. No, wait........a send is a command, which is a .....I'm gettin' dizzy!

Evan

 

[Ken Newcomb]

The exact line achieved by here and heel, getting the dogs back bone in perfect line to the destination is the perfect example of a "Literal Cast".

If I use three heres and two heels have I now handled/cast the dog 5 times? Are 4 of them potentially ast refusals?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'm sticking with

handle is equal to a cast but a cast is not equal to a handle.

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

A good example of how semantics gets us overthinking it.

Doesn't matter what you call it, if a dog kicks off the line the FIRSTtime it is told, and proceeds on the exact line until it reaches the bird, THAT dog has shown a remarkable amount of control and biddibility, perseverence over obstacles, and deserves solid applause from the gallery.

When the squirrels in a judge's head make him/her think "I can't tell if the dog shows control because the handler never had to blow the whistle" or "The dog has to cross the line to the blind at least once." then it is time to call the exterminator!

What is pleasing to the eye must needs be a good job. Further analysis not needed!

Lisa

 

[choclabs]

Cast once - Handled once

Has anyone been dropped from a competition for their dog stepping on the blind with no whistles (one set of tweet tweet tweet to pick up the bird and return) ?

I ran a water blind in a Q down the side of a dam on that was on the right hand side of the line. A strong left hand wind directly perpendicular to the line from the left pushing the dog into the dam. She lines up, is sent, launches herself down the bank into the pond and trips head first in the 3 ft deep silt accumulated near the entry bank. Then after doing a complete forward flip she straightens herself out and takes the initial line that she was cast on. Half way to the far bank she decides to dodge the 12 inch verticle drain pipe that previous dogs nearly got their head sucked down into. Her line now is a bannana into the strong wind and not at all very pronounced. She lands 110 yards away on top of the bird at the far end of the pond, and after 3 sharp tweets pick up the bird and returns in a very direct line without the bannana.

We were dropped for me not blowing a whistle and giving a back cast that would have her driven her close to the drain pipe and "proven" that she could handle the shore line suction. I was told that I did not challenge the blind. Go figure

 

[Evan]

A good example of how semantics gets us overthinking it.

Doesn't matter what you call it, ...

What is pleasing to the eye must needs be a good job. Further analysis not needed!

Lisa

I wish that were true, Lisa. In my example, and in UB's, further analysis is needed. Indeed we must not passively accept poor judging or unfair training if we are to be the advocates for our dogs that we profess ourselves to be.

I agree with your assessments, but a great deal hangs on the determinations of our event judges as they bear upon the breeds. I know we've all watched the same questionable judgments over the years, but we can't surrender to them or they'll only become worse for the lack of oversight.

Evan

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Evan;

That was my point.

Lisa

 

[Evan]

Cast once - Handled once

Has anyone been dropped from a competition for their dog stepping on the blind with no whistles (one set of tweet tweet tweet to pick up the bird and return) ? I was told that I did not challenge the blind. Go figure

Yep. A lesson I've not forgotten, and one with which I had to agree. It wasn't easy to accept, but Northrup Larson (the judge) was correct.

When a judge designs a route, especially for a blind, it contains certain logistical elements as they are available to test control and trainability. When we don't challenge those factors we circumvent the very aspects of that test that do the testing. I understand your rationale, but I hope you can at least see the judge's point.

Evan

 

[Ozpa]

When a judge designs a route, especially for a blind, it contains certain logistical elements as they are available to test control and trainability. When we don't challenge those factors we circumvent the very aspects of that test that do the testing. I understand your rationale, but I hope you can at least see the judge's point.

Evan

I've never liked this approach...the fact that a dog that took a straight enough, and long enough, line to wind a blind was dropped suggests to me that the parameters of the test were too tight to be reasonable. A dog that "challenged" the test might be scored higher...but a dog that stays on a line that takes it close enough to easily wind a blind should be carried, IMO.

To be clear: I'm not arguing about scoring...I'm arguing about being dropped.

 

[captdan]

IMNSHO, a dog run on any blind has been handled once. It is not marking, it is being handled by the handler. Any direction given by the handler including the original send is a cast.

Dan Rice

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Todd;

I have to disagree.

On a windy day, a dog can land 20 yards downwind and still come up with the blind. That's not challenging the blind. The line to the blind is from the line to the bird; a direct path. Any deviaton off that path is off line, and how badly "off line" this is considered is directly proportaional to the game you are playing and the stake you are running. It is not about just picking up the chickens; you must demonstrate control. The judges set the blind the way they set it, so that a team that challenges the blind will have to demonstrate control and perseverence over obstacles in their way. If you go around the obstacles, you get the bird, but demonstrate nothing as far as control, willingness to please (takes a good initial line even when the dog doesn't like the picture presented) and perseverence.

I once ran a WDQ event where the line to the blind was straight down a point, then across the channel. If one challenged the true line to the blind, one had many handles, because this particular pair of stooges said "The dogs must stay wet." Impossible to do, unless one kept the dogs' two left feet ion the water, and 2 right feet on land. THAT was the line. THAT was what I tried to do, but after ten whistles and we were STILL on the point, I picked up.

Several dogs passed. Their owners sent them on a line 90 degrees perpendicular to the true line to the blind, allowed the dogs to get out to sea, then gave a big right "OVER". One whistle, you did a great job, you got a ribbon.

Poor judging at its worst.

And yes, one of the stooges STILL gets asked to judge.

Lisa

 

[Ozpa]

Lisa,

Note I said "easily" wind.

I agree that it's not challenging the blind.

But, if a blind can be "lined" without challenging the test, then it is a BAD test.

If a dog runs a true, long, line that puts it in a position to easily find the bird, it has done a good job, which should carry it on. When a dog takes this good a line, you have demonstated control...certainly sufficiently to at least have the judges take a look in the next Blind series.

Maybe this is really the point:

If your dog is fortunate enough to line a blind...even with a slight "banana"...then hasn't your dog earned the right to run the next blind?

Todd
---who still thinks this is a scoring issue and not a drop/carry issue

 

[rick irick]

kennnnnn

10:30 am the third day of duck season i expect you limited by 9.
oh yes the dog was handled once. i must go dance with ducks now.