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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Further to a training diary, I seem to be writing my own ramblings into a private training book.

I have become a little confused on the term - indirect pressure related to fair and useful punishment. And how and why indirect pressure works.

Would you agree that indirect pressure is valid and fair ( from a behavioural sense ), if a reward is given (instantly, initially) after the use of correction/pressure, that learning and change of behaviour is gained with no loss of momentum?
 

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Aussie said:
Further to a training diary, I seem to be writing my own ramblings into a private training book.

I have become a little confused on the term - indirect pressure related to fair and useful punishment.

Would you agree that indirect pressure is valid and fair ( from a behavioural sense ), if a reward is given (instantly, initially) after the use of correction/pressure, that learning and change of behaviour is gained with no loss of momentum?
I agree with everything other than loss of momentum. Until the new behavior is learned and performed consistently, I think you'll have momentum loss. They have to make choices that aren't easy.

Angie
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
OK. Thanks Angie. Every time I return to my training ramblings, I seem to gain a headache. Not fair.......different terminology sucks also. I call momentum, drive for example.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Does anyone have any links either on RTF or elsewhere on indirect pressure related to canine training. I seem to find mechanical pressure gauges on my google searches. :lol: Found one on the use of spurs though.
 

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I still think you'll lose drive when a dog has to learn new things that are difficult for them or make tough decisions especially when corrections have been involved. They have to practice making the correct choices and performing them. Once their good at that the drive picks up again.

Angie
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks again Angie. Rorem tapes are playing in the background.

Um........ how do I reply???? When I see loss of drive/momentum I revert to reinstigating drive by Schutzhund type training.

I do understand that if pressure is to be used, it needs to be conditioned, but I train WEIRD. Takes me forever, but that is fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sorry, while I am on a roll.........having so many reference books around me as I continue my ramblings.

If anyone has the book by Jean Donaldson, The Culture Clash (I know, I know, not retriever related etc), could they refer to pages 162 - 167, and add their findings related to retriever "game" training.
 

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Aussie said:
When I see loss of drive/momentum I revert to reinstigating drive by Schutzhund type training.
Just an off the wall comment cause I understand some of how you train - I would gander in some situations this is just a band-aid.....drive in one area doesn't always translate to drive in another.

With what we demand of our dogs, sometimes they loose drive/momentum especially with tough tasks that make them think and learn while at the same time adding in a dose of presurre/correction whether direct or indirect. It is at these times you want to try and help the dog figure out the correct solution to the "pickle" that got them into the situation that is stressing them out - they have to learn to deal with pressure - whether real or precieved on their part. Once they do that they will normally calm down, be level headed and cool and their drive/momentum will pick back up - however, this means as the trainer you have to read the dog so you know that you are applying the correct amount of pressure - not too little, not too much - balance.

I guess I look at it as me tackling a problem - I can work on the problem become frustrated and just walk away and then go do something fun instead, but that problem is still there. I may go and feel good about doing something else, but I still haven't figured it out. But if I tackle it, go bonkers, get frustrated, get a little help from a friend, figure it out then not only have I learned something knew, but I feel pretty confident I could do it again a little better than I just did.....make sense....don't avoid the training.....

Just my take on it.....maybe I'm just rambling like you? :D

Give the Yankster a kick in the pants for me ;)

Lainee, Flash and Bullet
 

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Aussie, do a search on "Indirect Pressure" and put "achiro" as the author.

I have a post there that I'm sort of proud of. Maybe it will help.

Jerry
 

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While learning advanced concepts can be confusing to your dog. A thorough understanding of fair, consistent corrections that are familiar to the dog help them responsed in a controlled, consistent manner in new training situations.

Tom
 

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Julie, I read somewhere recently that there is nothing in the dog behavior literature that acknowleges the technique that we call indirect pressure. It may have been in the most recent Dennis Voight & Marilyn Fender articles on learning, in Retrievers Online. I lent my copy out to a friend so I can't verify that right now.
 

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Some very nice examples of indirect pressure on the new Farmer/Aycock DVD. One that comes to mind is how they correct for "no-going".

With their strongest correction (after the others have not produced the desired result) they use NO direct pressure at all. It's all indirect and away from the line and NOT facing the marks. They use strong corrections on a known command and then move back to the line to run the mark(s) again.

Good stuff..

Or as Jerry said,

"OK, I'm gonna post this ONE Last time. If you can't keep up, take notes.

You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbors voluptious daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).

You yell (whistle) "SON!!!!" (handle). His eyes get back into focus and turns toward you and says "WHAT??" (responding to whistle). For the Amish folks, you walk to him and whop him upside the head!!! (correction-indirect pressure). You then say "You were told to go get the mail, now do what you were told!!!"

That my friends is Indirect pressure and why it works.

Jerry"
bp
 

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FOM said:
Give the Yankster a kick in the pants for me ;)

Lainee, Flash and Bullet
Normally, I really dislike it when folks are partially quoted. Especially when it is during folks' unproductive debates bordering on personal attack...which helps nobody.

In this case, I want to say the above quote really made me smile! 8) So, I'm quoting only the one line.

Our old Bubba dog had a black cloud over his head. His life was fraught with lots of troubles that rolled off all the rest of the pack, but always hit Bubba square in the face.

We used to joke that dogs had no pants...we'd say:

"Poor Bubba...Poor, poor Bubba. Why's Bubba poor? Cause he ain't got no pockets, therefore he ain't got no money!"

---- Rest in peace Bubba, Max still talks about you being in heaven and how much he misses you....

Dogs are cool! Back to your normal conversations - sorry to derail. :wink:

Chris
 

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I just looked at the link, and the link in the link that goes over to an old Australian board discussion.... Interesting stuff.

Julie, you've been pondering this stuff for quite a while!

Andre' was such a good writer when he was not in a bad mood! Whatever happened to Andre'? Anybody know the latest? Is Rusty still with us?

Chris
 

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Andre' nailed that indirect pressure defination—can't say that I have seen anyone come as close—but if others have post them up!

In my opinion, Andre' got roughed up a bit in that gundog team thing. . .
john
 

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BUZZ WROTE:
most recent Dennis Voight & Marilyn Fender articles on learning, in Retrievers Online. I lent my copy out to a friend so I can't verify that right now.
Julie,
I read these articles just this morning and believe they might help you with this question on Indirect Pressure. I'll try to remember some of the key points and share them with you the next time we exchange emails.

We sure do love hearing from you about Yank!

Marty
 

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As I understand it; indirect pressure is a correction applied to a known command like the "sit whistle" not to the cast refusal or the moment of deviation from the desired line to mark or blind. As example; you blow a SW, dog sits, you cast, dog mis casts or refuses cast, you give another SW and apply the indirect pressure ie. toot nick toot.

In the case of loss of momentum you would not re-enforce the negative momentum by giving a sit whistle instead you would cast with hand and voice and send an e-mail to your dog (ie. direct pressure). Furthermore, if I am understanding Evan Graham correctly, forget about the retrieve at this point and keep the dog moving AWAY from you without breaking momentum with any attempt to whistle sit or cast. The only priority of the training exercise now, is to restore momentum, not the retrieve.
 

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Indirect pressure can be looked at as correcting a dog AFTER it has complied with a known command, i.e. the Sit whistle.

The dog fails to hold the proper line, you blow the sit whistle, the dog sits immediately, you "nick" it, even though it sat properly on the whistle. Then you give a cast to get it back on the proper line and hope all goes well.

And it works for some reason.

Jerry
 
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