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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After Steve pulled his dishonest, unfair, incompetent judge thread. Ted S puts a poll on judging assignments where folks can stretch their suspenders & puff out their chest. & Chris A talks of running an unknowing judge under the bus with a grainy video & a serious lack of knowledge of what his dog should have been doing by the poster, can stupid be cured? I agree with Chris in this instance but don't believe a judge rates a pass from criticism just because they are working for room & board :).

I've done this sport since 1963 - I entered the sport wanting a good hunting dog & FT's were all that were available - I have had the good fortune to train with some very competent people & have had the privilege of seeing some very good dogs developed firsthand including a few of my own - have thrown about 5K of dead & live birds at licensed trials - plus a lot of other things including helping keep a couple of sanctioned clubs alive long after their life support systems failed. In my day most of us did it because we loved the sport & the dog work. Today what I don't see are any number of people who are willing to do the grunt work so necessary to keep the sport functioing.

There are dishonest folks in this sport. They are easy to pick out as they follow a certain MO. If you want to cure that you need to call them on it. Otherwise they will take advantage of your laxity.They will have the hardware & you'll have what's left. There are more incompetent Judges with the book in their hands on any given weekend than any of us have fingers & toes. That is the biggest threat to the long term viability of keeping the sport alive, participants wise.

There has been mention of various books that deal with the sport. IMO a thorough knowledge of the rule book & what it means is a necessity. Beyond that "The Status of a Judge of Licensed Field Trials" by the AKC printed in the Feb-March 1967 issue of Retriever FT News is a very good primer to live by. Beyond those 2 documents everything else is redundant. Note that "personal experience with dogs in the field" is prominently mentioned as is "conditions met in an ordinary days shoot" indicating the fathers of the sport felt it wouldn't be a bad idea if you actually worked with dogs :p.

There is more but the day has been long ;-).
 

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In every single thread that even mentions the judging of a dog, you get an army of folks talking about how the judges are volunteers and how you shouldn't criticize their calls, etc.

I do appreciate the fact that the judges do volunteer, and those that have yet to retire, take vacation days off work and don't run their own dogs. But...

I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).

This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.
 

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Marvin
For two years I have been trying to puff my chest, but you have yet to let me know if I made your list of competent judges.
Waiting to exhale....:confused:
 

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Today what I don't see are any number of people who are willing to do the grunt work so necessary to keep the sport functioing.
Where the heck have you been this spring?
 

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In every single thread that even mentions the judging of a dog, you get an army of folks talking about how the judges are volunteers and how you shouldn't criticize their calls, etc.

I do appreciate the fact that the judges do volunteer, and those that have yet to retire, take vacation days off work and don't run their own dogs. But...

I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).

This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.

This post is spot on........

john
 

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There are two places you can go to find out who actually judges, runs, and works at trial.

To find out how often a person judges AKC events, go to http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/ and you can find out how often people who post on RTF actually judge

To find out how often a person runs AKC events, go to https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/search.aspx, and search Entry Express with that person's name. The software isn't perfect, but you can get a good idea of how often they run

To find out who works at trials, the process is more complicated. But, you can do an Entry Express search for events in a state where a person lives, look at premiums for the event committee and get a rough sense of who works to put on events, and who does not.

I think that if you engage in that effort, you will find the results enlightening.

Ted
 

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There are two places you can go to find out who actually judges, runs, and works at trial.

To find out how often a person judges AKC events, go to http://www.akc.org/judges_directory/ and you can find out how often people who post on RTF actually judge

To find out how often a person runs AKC events, go to https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/search.aspx, and search Entry Express with that person's name. The software isn't perfect, but you can get a good idea of how often they run

To find out who works at trials, the process is more complicated. But, you can do an Entry Express search for events in a state where a person lives, look at premiums for the event committee and get a rough sense of who works to put on events, and who does not.

I think that if you engage in that effort, you will find the results enlightening.

Ted
While you are at it, compare the ratio of the number of events run to the number of times they have judged/worked/ chaired ,etc. The more you eat the more you should PAY!........

john
 

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John and Marvin,

I ask that you guys treat others the way you would like to be treated. It is that basic.

It is that basic. It is that basic with how you handle video (I guess I don't see either of you two using video and posting it to the net anytime soon). It is that basic with what you write and how you write it.

It is that basic and simple.

It is that basic as a judge as well.

Would it make you guys feel better if I wrote about that? Here: I'll do it.

Remember that when you judge, you are in a place that seemed scary and intimidating to you when you started running your dogs. Remember that certain judges have made you feel like crap, and others have really made you enjoy your test. As a judge, treat the handlers the way you would want to be treated. Yes, you will have to make judgement calls that may not be fun. Do so with fairness, with a rulebook to back your decisions, and with a sense of empathy to the handler impacted.

It goes all the way around guys. All of us. Each and every one of us should use common courtesy.

The ONLY reason I chose to make my post about video yesterday was that I felt after the last week, that we are at a bit of a crossroads culturally.

You guys may recall the "peanut" thread. That thread was aimed at treating each others right. That thread was aimed at being fair in terms of what you write.

IN the identical sense, my intent with the video topic was to do the same. Use common courtesy. It is that simple and basic.

You guys are trying to turn this into something that it is not. Sure there are judges out there that are crooked. I believe crooked judges get found out. I am here to tell you that I have spent a couple weekends judging with some folks that I won't judge with again. I believe that word gets out.

I am not prepared to sit by and deal with the phone calls and emails from the people wronged by the posted videos, while the Marvins and the Fallons continue to grind the axe of the judging conspiracy. I felt obligated to make an editorial comment about the culture of RTF and how to properly treat others with common courtesy when it comes to the misuse of audiotape and video. Judging happened to be one of the TWO examples that I used.

Guys, you all have email addresses. Surely you all have email distribution lists. If you want to send emails to a distribution that treat folks in an unkind manner and accuse them of stuff, GO FOR IT!

I'm not trying to change your morals in your life. I'm just trying to steer the culture of RTF.

Is that that hard to understand? Or do you get it?

Thanks, Chris
 

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I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).

This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.
Glen-

I don't see where anyone disagreed with this statement. The question that we've been discussing is taking a video without the judges' knowledge, posting it on the internet and then throwing them under the bus for the posters own personal agenda. Quite a bit of difference there.

There are new people coming up learning to be good judges (hopefully) that don't need to be thrown under a bus. The poor judges that have been at this for years, shouldn't be asked to judge because if they are still poor after 30 years, they will always be poor. Sometimes people are asked to judge because they always say "yes" .... even though they aren't a good judge, clubs grab them because they are a body that can hold the book. Even they don't deserve to be thrown under the bus, but clubs need to stop asking those people to judge. they need to start developing new people to take over in the years to come. A succession plan so to speak. Otherwise, it's all just rhetoric.
 

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Marvin
For two years I have been trying to puff my chest, but you have yet to let me know if I made your list of competent judges.
Waiting to exhale....:confused:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I realize MY approval won't measure up to Marvin's but, FWIW, I have seen only one of your tests and it was a good one!

Even though you don't like fluffys. :p

JS
 

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Wow. Why is this so hard to understand? As Chris is saying, just respect each other. Don't we try and teach our kids this same lesson?

No, this is not about taking video without the judges knowledge. There are cameras and video cameras at almost every test. Handlers, judges and spectators should assume the event is being captured. There can be just as much damage with video from a distance as there can be from the line.

It shouldn't matter if a handler has a camera on their hat or if a friend is taking video from behind the judges. Take the video and just think before you post if it has ANYTHING other than you or your dog. Absolutely respect the sport enough not to post to try and make a judge look bad.

Respect each other.
 

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I am not prepared to sit by and deal with the phone calls and emails from the people wronged by the posted videos, while the Marvins and the Fallons continue to grind the axe of the judging conspiracy.
Thanks, Chris
Sorry, Chris, know you have stated that you dislike partial quotes.
But, what is it about that above statement that certain people don't seem to get????

I happen to agree with Chris' stand on this issue. But, even if I did not, it is HIS site. He deserves respect.

How many have walked in his shoes, had to deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis?? Just this one thread, has probably cost him a lot of time, and energy. Time and energy no doubt, that he would prefer to spend elsewhere.
But, noooo, he has to do it because some just have to be the big internet hero..:rolleyes:
This whole thing is totally selfish by just a few individuals..

And, if people are so all fired eager to "learn" get out there and do it in the real world..You can't learn to train/handle/judge on RTF.
 

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https://www.entryexpress.net/LoggedIn/search.aspx[/url], and search Entry Express with that person's name. The software isn't perfect, but you can get a good idea of how often they runTed
Ted,
You are right. The software on Entry Express for the history of how many times a person has entered/handled a dog and which dog was entered/handled is not perfect. The first 10 pages (2004-2008) for "Don Graves" worked. Although it shows there are pages 11 - 20 for Don Graves, it would not bring up those pages. It was stuck on page 10, year 2008, and would not go beyond that.

Helen
 

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The people who run dogs the most usually also have the least amount of time to help put on a test/trial.
 

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Sorry, Chris, know you have stated that you dislike partial quotes.
But, what is it about that above statement that certain people don't seem to get????

I happen to agree with Chris' stand on this issue. But, even if I did not, it is HIS site. He deserves respect.

How many have walked in his shoes, had to deal with this kind of thing on a daily basis?? Just this one thread, has probably cost him a lot of time, and energy. Time and energy no doubt, that he would prefer to spend elsewhere.
But, noooo, he has to do it because some just have to be the big internet hero..:rolleyes:
This whole thing is totally selfish by just a few individuals..

And, if people are so all fired eager to "learn" get out there and do it in the real world..You can't learn to train/handle/judge on RTF.
Well said, Charlotte....and Chris....

k g
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

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I was going to come up & check out the grounds maintenance that you had done but got waylaid, sorry about that :).

yeah-yeah..... fogs gone. Going outside now. Gotta get my potatoes planted and finish my hop grow operation
 

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The people who run dogs the most usually also have the least amount of time to help put on a test/trial.
For a "Happy" guy, you sure are a sourpuss.

I don't know where you get your information. Maybe things are different where you are.

In Colorado, there are six clubs

Rocky Mountain
- Larry Morgan, Tom Vaughn, Jeff Warren, Brian Biesemeier, Paul Knutson (a pro) and I put on two field trials a year. We all run dogs and we all judge dogs.

Pikes Peak
- Lainee Munhollon (FOM) and her husband, David, put on the trial. They run dogs, and they judge dogs.

Fort Collins
- Jeff Schoonover, John Montenieri, and Mark Veum (and others) put on the trial. Jeff and John run dogs and judge dogs. Mark will have a derby dog to run next year, and I expect will be judging dogs.

Centennial
- DeWitt Boice, Jr. David Hare, Don and Kathy Fregelette, Kenny Trott, and Marcy Wright put on two trials a year. Dee, Don, and Kathy run dogs and judge dogs. Kenny and Marcy are pros and cannot judge. David said that he will start judging.

Colorado Women's
- Wayne and Tracey Jensen, Barb Branstad, Bev Ensley put on a trial. All of them run dogs and judge dogs.

Cheyenne
- Barry Cruikshank, Brian Bowles, Joel Harris put on two trials a year. All run dogs, all judge dogs

I am sure I have missed someone here and apologize in advance

But my points are these

1. There are a number of different people putting on trials in our area
2. Just about everyone that runs a dog here helps put on a trial here
3. Just about everyone that runs a dog here judges dogs here

Sure there are a few slackers. But, not very many.

Just about everyone here pulls their own weight.

In short, your complaints may apply where you live, but they don't apply here.

Ted
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
John and Marvin,

I ask that you guys treat others the way you would like to be treated. It is that basic.

It is that basic. It is that basic with how you handle video (I guess I don't see either of you two using video and posting it to the net anytime soon). It is that basic with what you write and how you write it.

It is that basic and simple.

It is that basic as a judge as well.

Would it make you guys feel better if I wrote about that? Here: I'll do it.

Remember that when you judge, you are in a place that seemed scary and intimidating to you when you started running your dogs. Remember that certain judges have made you feel like crap, and others have really made you enjoy your test. As a judge, treat the handlers the way you would want to be treated. Yes, you will have to make judgement calls that may not be fun. Do so with fairness, with a rulebook to back your decisions, and with a sense of empathy to the handler impacted.

It goes all the way around guys. All of us. Each and every one of us should use common courtesy.

The ONLY reason I chose to make my post about video yesterday was that I felt after the last week, that we are at a bit of a crossroads culturally.

You guys may recall the "peanut" thread. That thread was aimed at treating each others right. That thread was aimed at being fair in terms of what you write.

IN the identical sense, my intent with the video topic was to do the same. Use common courtesy. It is that simple and basic.

You guys are trying to turn this into something that it is not. Sure there are judges out there that are crooked. I believe crooked judges get found out. I am here to tell you that I have spent a couple weekends judging with some folks that I won't judge with again. I believe that word gets out.

I am not prepared to sit by and deal with the phone calls and emails from the people wronged by the posted videos, while the Marvins and the Fallons continue to grind the axe of the judging conspiracy. I felt obligated to make an editorial comment about the culture of RTF and how to properly treat others with common courtesy when it comes to the misuse of audiotape and video. Judging happened to be one of the TWO examples that I used.

Guys, you all have email addresses. Surely you all have email distribution lists. If you want to send emails to a distribution that treat folks in an unkind manner and accuse them of stuff, GO FOR IT!

I'm not trying to change your morals in your life. I'm just trying to steer the culture of RTF.

Is that that hard to understand? Or do you get it?

Thanks, Chris
I'd like to point out a difference between John & myself. John is winging it as his personal experiences are limited, mine are not.

In my OP I did not disagree with you as I rarely do. I respect the opportunities presented on this forum & I believe you would agree that a balance of opinions is required. It's not all sunshine & roses :) in any endeavor.

Back when I 1st started my website there was a discussion of judge evaluation which was taken to the WRC site in order to encourage more FT people to get involved. About 5 people participated with 2 doing the lion's share of the heavy lifting. Most folks are fearful of being on record, & the potential consequences.

What I attempted to point out is judging is a weak link - just because someone judges, regardless of number of opportunities, does not validate them as competent, it betrays their level of competence - & while there are those who do not meet the standards of ethics - the majority are not capable of rendering proper decisions on dog work at the FT level because of a lack of preparation. The following partial quote sums it up quite well.

BTW - I enjoyed your training session video - I had a heeler who would do that work as long as I used bumpers, up to triples - she felt dead birds were hers to eat - & didn't do blinds :)


I also believe that simply because we volunteer to judge, we are not above being criticized. Before we sit in the judges chair, we have a responsibility to the sport and our fellow competitors to work our rear ends off to make sure we know the rules, and that we further educate ourself on trial mechanics, test set up, bird placement, etc. We should get out and train or handle dogs so that we know, or at least have an idea of how a dog will be affected by the many factors they and the handlers will face. Understand how factors can change a test as the day progresses (shadows, sun, backlit guns, etc).

This is what I expect from myself, and I see nothing wrong with expecting the same from anyone holding the judges book. Judging is a tremendous responsibility, if we do the homework, and learn from the senior judges we are paired with, the criticism should diminish as we gain experience.
In a nutshell, that quote sums it up quite well. John & I agree on that :cool:. I have added emphasis as I thoroughly agree with the statement made.
 
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