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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looks like there are several/many folks with line issues that have been created/exacerbated by running test prior to having a complete dog at the line. What roll do judges have in creating these monsters and likewise the whole ribbon quest mentality? Lower level titles were created as a hook to keep newbies in the game but at what cost if the judges refuse to send them home if the standard is not met? Should a judge close the book immediately and explain why on the spot for failure due to poor line manners or suffer through multiple train wrecks? Do call backs help or just place a band aid on a bleeder until next weekend?

An Enquiring Mind Regards
 

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What's your opinion?

It's my job to judge and pass the dogs that meet the standard (even if it is minimum standard). Certainly isn't my fault, nor my contribution to poor line manners, if someone meets the minimum standard 4 times and then crashes and burns in the SH/MH stakes.
 

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If you read the RULE BOOK Mr little,,you will discover, that in the lower levels of HT,, being resonably unruly at the line, isnt necessasarily a reason to fail a dog.
The culture of HT's is a progression program...
There are dangers to it that HANDLERS need to be aware of.
I believe its more the Handlers decision to decide what they are after.
Some handlers are extatic with passing a junior, or seasoned HT, even though, the dog may have crept a bit, started whining or maybe even a bit of Barking, once the birds are being shot....

That dog that passes that test,especially a dog in Seasoned or Senior,, is Still a better hunting companion than 90% of what most hunters hunt with..

Some dogs will pass with meeting the standard at a very high level,, others may not, but after the judges JUDGE, they determine that dog would, that day, be a viable hunting companion...

I dont think we need to make HT more than what they were designed to be....

I thnk HANDLERS need to become more educated as to how to achieve their personal goals...

There is a MINIMUM standard...

Gooser
 

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I really was disappointed when I read what what you were askin...

I thought it was gonna be a way to get morejudges involved by providing Pastry!!

I really like them apple bear claws...

Gooser
 

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If you have ever judged you know darn well and good that those out of control dogs will likely put themselves out-it's a snowball effect. It's not the judges fault line manners are terrible, anymore than it's their fault the dog can't handle on a blind. It's training. Or lack there of. Take a look at the person on the end of the leash. I judge to a standard, I don't get a measuring stick out and make sure fidos shoulder stays within 1' of your knee as you walk to the line. You as a handler/trainer are responsible for your dog-plain and simple.
 

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I really was disappointed when I read what what you were askin...

I thought it was gonna be a way to get morejudges involved by providing Pastry!!

I really like them apple bear claws...

Gooser
I thought it was going to be a story about a judge falling down a hill.
my chair fell over backwards one time and I rolled into a couple bird drying boxes. I like your plan better Gooser.
As to the OP.... the judges roll???? to get through the day without an RTF thread being started about them on Monday morning ;-)



.
 

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I assume you're talking hunt tests here.... If it's a major fault per the rulebook, there is only one thing to do.

The problem lies in the repetition or minor or moderate faults where there is room for interpretation, within the rules. In many cases, a judge that drops a dog for repeated issues classified as minor or moderate, is not asked back to judge again, even though they may be justified in that call.

Many clubs want to keep entry numbers high to cover the rising cost of holding tests and put a little profit in the club kitty. Handing out lots of ribbons/titles and sending people away happy is one way to ensure repeat customers and a profitable event.

Unfortunately, this practice can be a major disservice to the dog and handler who move on thinking their performance was okay and the next judge that knocks them for the same behavior is "unfair". It can also lower the standard or at least the "perceived" standard over time.

I respect judges who make the hard call to drop a dog, when the situation calls for it, but not everybody feels that way and it really comes down to an economic issue for the club.
 

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The judges role is to judge to the standard. In junior the handler can hold the dog so you are judging arrival from the holding blind, they need to arrive with 4 feet on the ground, they are supposed to be lightly held before their number is given, they must be reasonably quiet, and they must deliver to hand. Steadiness is not really judged so there is not a lot of stress on line manners in junior but the handler sure knows how excited the dog is. It's the lure of "my dog titled at X age" brag rights and ego of the handler-not the judges fault. Some of the handlers are warned but they don't wait to fix it, they can't wait for senior and then the trouble starts because they have to be steady to consistently pass. It's not the judges job to tell them they are going to ruin the dog for future testing. The responsibility goes to the handler to slow down and not run a bunch of tests in a row with a young dog just to get a ribbon or title.
 

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As you have noted, there have been a lot of threads recently on problems with line manners, including creeping, noise, breaking, etc., etc.

AND, it appears that running too many tests can contribute to the overall problem. However, it is not the judges fault that these at some point get too out of hand where the handler can not accept it anymore.

It is the handlers fault. They are the ones who are letting it go in training and not maintaining their standard in training. They are the ones who are chasing the ribbons, and doing everything necessary to get their dog to Sh before 16 months, and MH before 20 -24 months. They are the ones who overlook training problems and still enter their dog in the tests.

How do they know it is a problem. They finally do fail a hunt test because of the said issue.

And then there are others who have the exact same problems who do not enter tests every weekend. They are not chasing the ribbons. BUT, they are still overlooking those same issues in training, and letting their standard dip, well, because, it is not really that bad, right (ask me how I know)?

It is so hard to keep your standards high in training, and take the necessary time in training because one feels they are taking too much time from their training partners trying to work out these issues. In the end, you need to explain to your training group that you are working through issues, and they will understand. If they do not, then maybe that group is not the one you should be training with.
 

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The culture of HT's is a progression program...
There are dangers to it that HANDLERS need to be aware of.
I believe its more the Handlers decision to decide what they are after.
Some handlers are extatic with passing a junior, or seasoned HT, even though, the dog may have crept a bit, started whining or maybe even a bit of Barking, once the birds are being shot....

That dog that passes that test,especially a dog in Seasoned or Senior,, is Still a better hunting companion than 90% of what most hunters hunt with..

Some dogs will pass with meeting the standard at a very high level,, others may not, but after the judges JUDGE, they determine that dog would, that day, be a viable hunting companion...

I dont think we need to make HT more than what they were designed to be....

I thnk HANDLERS need to become more educated as to how to achieve their personal goals...

There is a MINIMUM standard...

Gooser
Abso-freaking-lutely right! ;-)
 

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My guess is judges need to take all of the dogs that will be running under them in for a couple of weeks of training. If they are going to be blamed for poor training and stupid dogs they should at least have the chance to train them before being blamed. This is why I no longer judge juniors or seniors.
 

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How do they know it is a problem. They finally do fail a hunt test because of the said issue.
I have had judges say you need to do this or that and I respect those comments. I took one dog from running trials where he never budged on the line, LM son, but went to his first senior, and on the water he bunny hopped out and I had to say sit. Took me by surprise and when the judge remarked I said it was his first HT. Then you have something to work on. I found that many judges in the JH and SH were very kind about telling you what you could work on but it is up to the handler to scratch the next test and work on it, not pass by the seat of his pants.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Are you accusing judges of not judging to the standard?


/Paul
No Paul, I am implying that the standard sometimes moves based on the overall strength of the field. How many hunt test judges adhere to the strict standard as opposed to those with the "Errebody's a Winner" attitude?
 

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Unless asked, I have never told anyone what they need to work on. I don't feel it's my role to coach them. IMO one of the worst things a judge can do is give someone a ribbon and later tell them they were very lucky to get by (unless they are your close friend). Of course, if I am asked about their performance, I will discuss the good and bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Unless asked, I have never told anyone what they need to work on. I don't feel it's my role to coach them. IMO one of the worst things a judge can do is give someone a ribbon and later tell them they were very lucky to get by. Of course if I am asked about their performance, I will discuss the good and bad.
Tom, isn't giving them a ribbon telling them that they did a great job?
Should it be required to attend a handlers seminar to run a dog past Jr or Started?:D
 

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Quote:



Tom, isn't giving them a ribbon telling them that they did a great job?

I dont necessarly think so... I think it means they met the standard of the LEVEL they are running that day.

You dont necessarily need to run a test perfect or greatly to pass.

All the judges role is to use his JUDGEMENT and apply the standard..

Some judges do it differently than others...

Now,, If you are Compeating dog vs dog... You better be prepared to compeat with the best of competition..

Thats NOT what HT are about...


 
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