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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Rule Book states (page 33) states:

If a dog on line creeps or jumps forward short of breaking as birds are shot and no effort is made by the handler to stop and restrain him, the Judges should not interpret such as a deliberate intent to retrieve, since nothing was done to stop the dog. On the other hand, if the handler does make an effort to stop the dog, the Judges should assume that the handler believed the dog intended to retrieve and should deal with such infraction accordingly.


The Judges may require that dogs which have so jumped or crept forward be brought back to heel before being sent for their birds. A handler so ordered should bring his dog to a position satisfactory to the Judges and remain with him in such position until his number is called. In tests including honoring, care should be exercised to treat creeping, on the part of either dog, in a manner not grossly unfair to the other.


On page 46, the Rule Book states:

The Judges should agree in advance as to the extent of movement which shall be considered “creeping,’’ short of breaking, and whether working dogs so offending shall be ordered brought to heel before being sent to retrieve.


Also, in the minor stakes, where “controlled’’ breaks are permissible, the Judges should reach an agreement about the degree they will consider a “controlled’’ break in contrast to one which will eliminate the dog from further competition; also, they should be in agreement about the severity of the penalties to assess for various degrees of “controlled’’ breaks.


Questions:

1) Under what circumstances do you instruct a handler to re-heel your dog? If you don't, why don't you do so?
2) When you instruct the handler to re-heel the dog, what are your criteria for giving the dog its number?
3) How do you place the honor dog in relation to the running dog to ensure that creeping by one is not "grossly unfair" to another?
4) Do you set a "creep" point at which a creep becomes a break and a controlled break becomes a break? If so, where do you set your creep line? If not, why not?

Ted
 
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In answer to your question # 1........NEVER would I ask a handler to re heel his dog.

This is one of this rules I believe needs to be changed. When judges ask a handler to re heel their dog, you are in fact aiding the handler which is against another rule somewhere in the book.

If a handler is dumb enough not to reheel his own dog and allows it to get away with that behavior at a trial then it's on him/her.

Judges should judge the work in front of them and let the handlers run their dog.....no matter how poorly they do it and penalize them appropriately.
 

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Not a FT guy, so my question is in regards to HT. I created a creeper. I have only once been asked to reheel him. He did heel and they gave me my number to send him. The rule book states:

"The handler of the working dog shall remain silent from the time handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the Judges release the dog."


There have been a couple of times that I was waiting to be told to reheel, but they gave me my number instead. If I say "heel" without being told, am I done for the day?

Would it be wrong for the judges to establish a "line in the sand" for handlers to know how far is acceptable to the judges and if the line is crossed a reheel will be given?
 

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I will take a stab at this with my philosophy. This is applied at a trial IF my co-judge agrees. Also, the instruction of handler on the mat for marks will be given.
1) Generally I will give a dog 10-15 feet of creeping. Of course this depends on the grounds and what the line looks at. I have my own innate feeling of what "excessive creeping" is.
2) If I ask a handler to re-heel his dog, I want to see the dog return to the handler so that at least the tail of the dog is by the feet of the handler. Multiple commands of heel (3+), with a dog not returning to his position will generally be met with a "pick up your dog" response from me.
3) I try to select a honor position that is in full view of the flier station, but back from the working dog mat. That way if the honor dog creeps 10-15 feet, it will still be on the periphery of the working dog's vision.
4) I have never been faced with this decision (thank God), but thinking it through, if the dog does stop on it's own, I would call that a creep. This is within reason, but I believe that a dog that has gone out any great distance (30+ feet), is probably not going to stop on it's own. Based on the rules, if a dog stops on it's own, even at a great distance, that should not be considered a break.

I have not seen Cosmo run, but have heard he would creep a great distance and then return on his own to the line to be sent. I need more time judging with very experienced judges to form an opinion on part 4 of the question.

In response to Labguy, I do not agree that asking a handler to re-heel his dog is an aid. I feel that asking the dog to re-heel is actually a penalty to the working dog as the act of re-heeling actually can degrade the location of the marks the dog watched go down.
 

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Not a FT guy, so my question is in regards to HT. I created a creeper. I have only once been asked to reheel him. He did heel and they gave me my number to send him. The rule book states:

"The handler of the working dog shall remain silent from the time handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the Judges release the dog."


There have been a couple of times that I was waiting to be told to reheel, but they gave me my number instead. If I say "heel" without being told, am I done for the day?

Would it be wrong for the judges to establish a "line in the sand" for handlers to know how far is acceptable to the judges and if the line is crossed a reheel will be given?
After your number has been called you are permitted to reheel your dog if you choose to.
 

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If you have an honor how fair is it to the honor dog to tell the working dog to reheel?
I don't think it should affect the honor dog that much. After all, the command being given is "heel". Still trying to improve my judging. You have done far more than I, have you seen it affect honor dogs?
 

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I don't think it should affect the honor dog that much. After all, the command being given is "heel". Still trying to improve my judging. You have done far more than I, have you seen it affect honor dogs?
While the command is heel it is not being given by the honor dog's handler. I think whether or not the honor dog could be adversely affected depends on the response of the working dog when told to reheel. What about your example of the dog that is so unruly it will never assume a satisfactory position no matter how many commands it has been given?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
When judges ask a handler to re heel their dog, you are in fact aiding the handler which is against another rule somewhere in the book.

Like Dave, I disagree. Overall, I think that the statement that poor line manners take care of themselves in the field is overbroad. My observation is that dogs that are loose on the line, mark well in the field because they are relaxed. And so, in the first series at least, poor line manners do not take care of themselves in the field. Further, I believe that when the handler gets into a fight with the dog re-heeling, that often disrupts the running dog and its mark. I do believe that the dogs that are wild and crazy on the line tend to eliminate themselves on a well constructed blind, but often judges are so enamoured with the dog's marking ability that they forgive poor line manners and a poor blind.

All that being said, I can't remember the last time that I made a handler re-heel the dog. I make book on my sheet and figure that the blinds will expose the dog's flaws.
 

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While the command is heel it is not being given by the honor dog's handler. I think whether or not the honor dog could be adversely affected depends on the response of the working dog when told to reheel. What about your example of the dog that is so unruly it will never assume a satisfactory position no matter how many commands it has been given?
Not sure on that one. I have only seen that happen a couple times and neither time did the honor dog break. I should look at the rule book to try and answer this one, but is there a case, where you would say the working dog interfered with the honor dog if the honor dog were to break? IE, a re-run if you will for honoring?
 

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I don't think it should affect the honor dog that much. After all, the command being given is "heel". Still trying to improve my judging. You have done far more than I, have you seen it affect honor dogs?
I have been on honor with a young dog when the working dog is unruly and while he did not break there was potential. The older dogs typically ignore the hubbub and sometimes excuse themselves which creates another potential problem for the honor dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Not sure on that one. I have only seen that happen a couple times and neither time did the honor dog break. I should look at the rule book to try and answer this one, but is there a case, where you would say the working dog interfered with the honor dog if the honor dog were to break? IE, a re-run if you will for honoring?
Dave

If you ask for a re-heel,

1. What is constitutes a sufficient re-heel?
2. At what point, do you say enough is enough and ask for the next running dog?

Ted
 

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Not sure on that one. I have only seen that happen a couple times and neither time did the honor dog break. I should look at the rule book to try and answer this one, but is there a case, where you would say the working dog interfered with the honor dog if the honor dog were to break? IE, a re-run if you will for honoring?
There is no remedy for the honor dog breaking as there is nothing to be interfered with. My point is if you are honoring use care that when you ask the working dog to reheel you are not applying an extra burden to the honor dog. Sitting still while watching a talented creeper is burden enough.
 

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Dave

If you ask for a re-heel,

1. What is constitutes a sufficient re-heel?
2. At what point, do you say enough is enough and ask for the next running dog?

Ted
If I ask a handler to re-heel his dog, I want to see the dog return to the handler so that at least the tail of the dog is by the feet of the handler. Multiple commands of heel (3+), with a dog not returning to his position will generally be met with a "pick up your dog" response from me.
 

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I am fascinated by these discussions. I am still not an eight point judge, but find myself talking about judging at training days and at trials more than dog training. I do not seek out judging assignments, but if I am asked, I would like to do the best job possible and don't want to end up on somebody's "don't run under him" list:mad:. My creeping responses may get me on that list!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have been on honor with a young dog when the working dog is unruly and while he did not break there was potential. The older dogs typically ignore the hubbub and sometimes excuse themselves which creates another potential problem for the honor dog.

Good topic for another thread - interference. Early in my FT career, I was trying to run my dog with an honoring dog that was squealing and bouncing around, all the while with the handler saying "sit" more and more often, and more and more loudly. I tried to run my dog, and he blew up. I think if that happened today, I would turn around and look at the judges and say "Really?"
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I am fascinated by these discussions. I am still not an eight point judge, but find myself talking about judging at training days and at trials more than dog training. I do not seek out judging assignments, but if I am asked, I would like to do the best job possible and don't want to end up on somebody's "don't run under him" list:mad:. My creeping responses may get me on that list!

Dave

I think that the point of these "what if" conversations is to think about these situations in advance, so that when you are called to make a split second decision, you are better prepared.

Ted
 

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In answer to your question # 1........NEVER would I ask a handler to re heel his dog.

Judges should judge the work in front of them and let the handlers run their dog.....no matter how poorly they do it and penalize them appropriately.
That!

Heeling the dog allows the handler to re-establish control that they lost!

Judge what you see. Do not become involved in the process>
 

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For those judges in the "re heel your dog" camp............how do you judge that?

You've asked the handler to re heel the dog......the dog is back in control.....do you still penalize for creeping?

If you do penalize them anyway after the re heel, what's the point in asking for a re heel in the first place?

if you don't penalize them for creeping after the re heel, why not?
 

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For those judges in the "re heel your dog" camp............how do you judge that?

You've asked the handler to re heel the dog......the dog is back in control.....do you still penalize for creeping?

If you do penalize them anyway after the re heel, what's the point in asking for a re heel in the first place?

if you don't penalize them for creeping after the re heel, why not?
I rarely ask a dog to reheel as I rarely see a dog creep more than 2 or 3 feet however I do think we may be comparing apples to oranges in viewing creeping with fliers versus creeping without fliers. The very act of asking a creeper to reheel can disrupt the dog's concentration on the mark and give the dog and handler an opportunity "to assume whatever position instructed by the judges". Minor faults can become major faults when repeated often enough so the dog crept (infraction 1) and then ignored repeated commands from the handler to assume the position designated by the judges (infraction 2 through infinity).

Most handlers will reheel their own dogs after their number is called unless they expect it would be a futile effort.
 
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