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Ted and Ed, what is your ‘creep’ point? I said wow, mentally, at 10-15 feet. It’s not a break, but that just seems an excessive distance from the handler.
 

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Ted and Ed, what is your ‘creep’ point? I said wow, mentally, at 10-15 feet. It’s not a break, but that just seems an excessive distance from the handler.
I don't recall the last time I told someone to reheel their dog but for me it is more about the activity of the dog not necessarily the distance but I know it when I see it. A dog that jumps out a few feet when the first bird is thrown will often fixate on the flier and administer a self inflicted penalty while one that watches the birds but creeps with each throw deserves to have his concentration disrupted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Ted and Ed, what is your ‘creep’ point? I said wow, mentally, at 10-15 feet. It’s not a break, but that just seems an excessive distance from the handler.
Sue

When I started judging, I had no creep point.

Then for a while, I would put a rock or branch out in front of the line - say 15 feet and that was my break marker

Then I got away from it. But, I am wondering whether I should go back to implementing one.

Ted
 

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Really enjoying RTF with these threads in a long time !
Interesting also more the perceptions of rules and interpretation of what should be rather than is . ..especially when mention of the 'Field' . I suppose it depends on your Field when it comes to what creeping and honour is right . Fascinating all the same with 'Distractions ' and pressure any dog or handler has on themselves. Even with a 'Piper' in the background ! Zero creep and Zero Noise from the line is required also when the Game is on the line . Another great Thread Ted . Thanks .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsNb1m-ifCo
 

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Yes and YES. These threads have brought some much needed luster to RTF. Thanks. They really make me think.

Most of these discussions relate to FT's and I'm trying to get a feel for how they might or might not apply in HT's. With the exceptions discussed previously (i.e., handlers being given X number of seconds to go from holding blind to line) my understanding is that the general practice is for FT handlers to walk to the spot designated, and then point the gun stations out to the dog, then call for the birds. Correct me if I'm wrong (please!)

In a HT, the guns are supposed to be well concealed. (I know... but they are SUPPOSED to be well concealed.) So the sounds (quack, pop) and throw are happening, in the moment, in isolation from other marks. Under these circumstances, wouldn't a creep be a much more significant handicap for the dog. IOW, in theory, a Cosmo-esque type creep-and-self-reheel should not be as successful in HT's as it might in FT's since they see neither the movement of the gun barrel nor of their handler. (Clearly I never saw Cosmo run, but am grateful he is well represented in my dog's pedigree.)

In any event, maybe some experienced HT judge could weigh in on how creeping does or doesn't hurt a dog in a well designed series.
 

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Ted,
1) Judges must agree prior to the test how they will handle creeping. Not all judges will re-heel. As a Senior HT on the West Coast, I almost always ask the handler to re-heel. The AKC does not make this mandatory and the judges can interpret this issue anyway they want. Because creeping leads to breaking I want to see that the dog understands commands like heel or here. If the dog ignores the handler, then points are seriously deducted in Trainability/line manners/steadiness.
2) If I re-heel a handler/dog team, then that means as a judge I never "released" the dog to the mark. So once the dog is in re-heel position, I might want a few second before giving the dog's number or simply saying "dog". The handler then is on his/her own to heel the dog more or to release.
3) Honor dogs in my tests are placed somewhere between 8-10 feet to either side of the dog, depending the landscape. Honor dogs are never placed where a line dog that interfere with it, or encourage the honor to leave heel. If an honor dog leaves heel it is up to the handler of the honor dog to re-heel the dog and no points are taken from the line dog. Honor dogs are typically more focused on the marks, not on the line dog.
4) Yes. I and the co-judge sit down prior to the event and mark off an area that is away from the line. The dog can creep or do a controlled break to that area, but no further. If the dog busts past this pre-determined area then that is no longer a controlled break or creep, but a break and a zero is given. All handlers are notified of this area (usually taped off) so there are no excuses. Hope this helps.
 

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When a judge establishes a creep line and a dog exceeds it, the dog is not being dropped for breaking. It is being dropped for a single incident of creeping, so severe, that it warrants elimination. I have had that dog that is in the middle of the decoys, as we watch ducks flare.
 
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Come to the line tractable at heal and sit promptly at the point designated by the handler and remain quietly where placed until given further orders.......

........ violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake.

So, sit back and take notes. When I ask a handler to re heal a dog it's usually a notice to the handler that they're on thin ice.
 

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Did I read some of the prior posts correctly???? Some stating that judges at FT's allow dogs to creep 10-15 feet as birds are thrown????:eek::oops:

And y'all are supposed to be testing for the best dogs for breeding "hunting dogs"........................are you not???

Grand regards.:unsure:
 

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Did I read some of the prior posts correctly???? Some stating that judges at FT's allow dogs to creep 10-15 feet as birds are thrown????:eek::oops:

And y'all are supposed to be testing for the best dogs for breeding "hunting dogs"........................are you not???

Grand regards.:unsure:
The hunt test programs started in the 1980s to address the needs of Joe Hunter.

Bill Tarrant, Omar Driskill, Richard Wolters, etc. all wrote extensively about how the Field Trials 40 years ago were beyond the needs of the hunter. That gap has only widened. If Tarrant, Wolters, Driskill went to one of today's all age or qualifying stakes, they'd poop their pants.

Your punctuation keys are sticking.
 

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Did I read some of the prior posts correctly???? Some stating that judges at FT's allow dogs to creep 10-15 feet as birds are thrown????:eek::oops:

And y'all are supposed to be testing for the best dogs for breeding "hunting dogs"........................are you not???

Grand regards.:unsure:
A field trial is intended to find the best marking and handling dog from those entered that day. A creeping dog may mark better than one which doesn't and the rule book states that dog should be penalized up to being dropped for accumulated faults.

If every dog at the trial creeps it will be the judges job to judge which was least or best.

This constant attempt of intellectualism regarding judging at every turn is exhausting. Sometimes, I believe it is intended to create an air of elitism in conversation which inhibits the neophytes willingness to enter into a conversation and sometimes judging at all.

Judging is simple. It doesn't require much more than a basic knowledge of the rulebook. There is no magical set up skills and your drawings don't matter as long as you understand what you recorded for later study.

Every judge has laid an egg at a trial, left bad impressions with others, left someone disgruntled and also makes one or two new friends every trial.
 

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A field trial is intended to find the best marking and handling dog from those entered that day. A creeping dog may mark better than one which doesn't and the rule book states that dog should be penalized up to being dropped for accumulated faults.

If every dog at the trial creeps it will be the judges job to judge which was least or best.

This constant attempt of intellectualism regarding judging at every turn is exhausting. Sometimes, I believe it is intended to create an air of elitism in conversation which inhibits the neophytes willingness to enter into a conversation and sometimes judging at all.

Judging is simple. It doesn't require much more than a basic knowledge of the rulebook. There is no magical set up skills and your drawings don't matter as long as you understand what you recorded for later study.

Every judge has laid an egg at a trial, left bad impressions with others, left someone disgruntled and also makes one or two new friends every trial.
Well written Mr. Paul! I agree.
 

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Judging is simple. It doesn't require much more than a basic knowledge of the rulebook. There is no magical set up skills and your drawings don't matter as long as you understand what you recorded for later study.
It isn't magic but it is a skill to be learned.
 

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It isn't magic but it is a skill to be learned.
A one liner from the king of one liners,

"You don't need to fly in bad judges. We have plenty of them right here"
 
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Sat on honor one time while the running dogs handler asked dog to heel 28 times.

No pheasants in KS regards,

Aaron
 

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If that's what y'all want and desire.......................
 

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If that's what y'all want and desire.......................
Ask any field trialer which takes precedence;
The “want” to win a trial or the “desire” for a dog not to creep.

Breeders also tend to favor studs that score the most points over those that crept the fewest inches.
 

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If that's what y'all want and desire.......................
Don't see the high point open and am dogs out 25 feet. Mostly amateur trained dogs
 
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