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What group do you fall into...

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Discussion Starter #1
So I attended a HT judges seminar this past weekend. Pretty much the same as always. I did find it interesting how some of the other judges in the class judge marking. For example take a wide open triple. Dog picks up the two outside birds, pins them, gets lets say 10 on both marks. Lines up for the 3rd middle bird and immediately heads for the 1st bird again. Handler stops and handles the dog with no refusals to the middle bird.


Group A
Some judges felt that a zero was in order since the middle bird was the key memory bird and the dog showed no memory of the mark. Zero him and drop him, the first two marks didn't count as they were just to setup the key bird.

Group B
Others felt that a zero on that middle bird was warranted, but take into consideration the first two birds and overall for the series the dog gets a 6.6 (10+10+0/3)

Group C
Others felt that math was just to complicated, one handle was acceptable, but two warranted a zero in marking.

I also found it interesting that this scenario was presented as the first series of the test, and the group A judges didn't care, drop them anyway. Under group B and C the dog would advance to the second series. I'm curious what the majority of AKC HT judges on the board think? What group do you fall into...

/Paul
 

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I voted B.

The dog pretty much stunk up the first series... but i always ask myself if the dog hammers the blinds and the water marks after this, is he worthy of passing and in this example i think he is.

Shayne
 

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I voted B also. I want to see a master dog complete a triple on his own before the days over but it dosent have to be the 1st set of marks.
 

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As a Master dog owner, I'd say that I expect the dog to pick up all three without a handle, but thats not always the way she sees it. I agree that if she cleanly handles to the middle bird and otherwise did nice work on the other two birds she would deserve to get the call back. Now if she stinks up the water tripple, you better have packed a lunch in my opion. Master hunters have to earn that title.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Just a note that this discussion in the seminar took up most of the morning. I actually at one point felt a bit sorry for Joe as he had completley lost control of the room, but I quickly recovered when reminded myself that he was the AKC rep and is getting paid for this. :)

/paul
 

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B It is quite possible dog never saw the middle mark to begin with.
 

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This dog hammered 2 out of 3 of the marks and had a quick recovery on the 3rd. That is still very good work overall. Especially in the 1st series. There are a lot of other chances during the day for the dog to demonstrate if he is MH quality or not. This dog is going to see 4 or 5 more marks in this test. If he hammers these and therefore would go 7 out of 8 being perfect, wouldn't be quite fair to drop him as described in the 1st series.
 

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B! Its suppose to be about a quality hunting retriever anyway! Tell me you would hate to have a dog in your blind that needed a handle now and again. :lol:
 

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Gun_Dog2002 said:
Zero him and drop him, the first two marks didn't count as they were just to setup the key bird.
What the *bleep*? :shock: I haven't read all of the AKC HT rules, but is this acceptable?
Tina (I voted B)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
KJB said:
Gun_Dog2002 said:
Zero him and drop him, the first two marks didn't count as they were just to setup the key bird.
What the *bleep*? :shock: I haven't read all of the AKC HT rules, but is this acceptable?
Tina (I voted B)
In some cases perhaps. As a judge, you may setup a test that has two difficult marks and third in your face flyer that lands 20 yards in front of the dog belly up in the water. Now from a marking perspective, it really is not that much of a mark. But it sure does test a dogs training and ability to remember the other two marks in the face of big distraction. As a B group type of judge, I would say that mark gets a NA on my score sheet, goes towards trainability and the other two marks are truly scored as a mark. That being said, sometimes depending on the order the dog picks up the marks, it gets a score?.

/Paul
 

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Gun_Dog2002 said:
In some cases perhaps. As a judge, you may setup a test that has two difficult marks and third in your face flyer that lands 20 yards in front of the dog belly up in the water. Now from a marking perspective, it really is not that much of a mark. But it sure does test a dogs training and ability to remember the other two marks in the face of big distraction. As a B group type of judge, I would say that mark gets a NA on my score sheet, goes towards trainability and the other two marks are truly scored as a mark. That being said, sometimes depending on the order the dog picks up the marks, it gets a score?.

/Paul
Thanks, Paul, your last sentence makes perfect sense to me - I can see the logic of 1 mark not really testing "marking" in a "stand alone" sense, but I definitely agree the dog could do a poor job of marking that bird and thus the dogs performance on that mark should be scored. But I was disturbed at the idea of ONLY the middle bird mattering - do it, get a score, handle 2x and get dropped seems kinda inflexible to me...it all just depends, I guess. :wink: It would really become an interesting exercise if we were talking about the 1st series of the Master National, eh? :p
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Did I mention that one Group A member was a former MN judge. I think though that he aspires to be a group b member by always giving the third mark a score of 1 to keep the dog in the game longer for evaluation. He only puts down a zero on the mark when he is truly finished. But he did feel a zero on one mark in a series counted as a zero for the series.

/Paul
 

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I don't like scoring all three marks of a tripple and averaging the score. Like is suggested in B. It does not put enough importance on the "Key" marks.

I score the whole tripple a single score, up or down from a 7. Where a 7 is what I deem is acceptable for a Master. (Remember a 5 average can still pass.) Per the discription I would score this a 4 or 5. It would be called back. I would expect a master to do a tripple without handling.
 

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:lol: i see they haven't worn out that pyramid triple yet!

this is the problem with those presentations. instead of discussing what makes for a quality marking test that can be scored relatively easily and gives the dog a good opportunity to mark all the birds, they dwell on details surrounding a poor setup.

group a judges are people who don't want to be bothered with judging. chop-chop and get on to the next round of elimination.

group b judges are trying hard to make to deal fairly with the participants, but their method sets them up to pass some very marginal performances.

group c doesn't want to be bogged down by details, so they have a rigid framework for determining failure.

i judge similar to what Doug has suggested. if my co-judge and i have 3 marks in a test, i score all 3. but, i will weight the individual marks according to difficulty.

i don't feel i have the luxury of throwing marks in a test i won't be scoring. i want all 9 or 10 of them to count.-paul
 

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are you saying that a dog that mis-marks 1 bird out of 9 is on the bubble AS A HUNTING COMPANION?

that's what we're supposed to be sorting out; the dogs that are not suitable vs. the ones who are...........-paul
 

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I have to come down with Paul on this one .
The long memory bird of a triple :!:
After agreeing on the size of AOF. The judges should then assign a degree of difficulty to each mark and the memory bird gets the highest DOD.
john
 

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A master dog is to be a "finished" retriever.
Marking is of primary importance.
Handling on a mark in a Master should be penalized more than at the Senior Level.

From the description the dog not only failed to show memory of the one bird it was in the process of returning to a previous retrieved bird when it was handled to area of the forgotten mark.
All marks count to different degrees. This dog has shown that it could not mark the triple and was not trained to line well enough not to return to an old fall. IMHO drop him!
But that is probalby why I don't/won't judge HTs. :p

Tim
 
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