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How would you place them Dog A or B?

  • Dog A

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  • Dog B

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Dog A - Runs marks at 1/2 to 3/4 speed to marks, is able to front foot marks without taking any extra steps at all. Returns at 1/2 speed at best on the return. Is very methodical or scared, one or the other , to make a mistake. Your hair turns gray while this dog returns, but he doesn't take one extra step to or from off line.

Dog B - Runs marks so hard that he puts his head down to pickem up, front footed,but can't get stopped quick enough and takes 10 feet more and maybe a flip to get back to bird. Runs wide open on the return, heels around fire breathing, eyes focused on the next mark.

This is a Derby situation. Both dogs pickup all 8 of the marks with no hunts at all. Only two dogs to smack em the rest had at least some type of hunt on one of the 8 marks. How would you place them on the information at hand?

Answer the poll,but reply with reasons.
 

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In my mind, DOG B had better work...

First, marking is not JUST running (walking) to where the bird is... Marking ability is a blend of desire, trained responses, responses to elements, prey drive, awareness, ability to focus, memory, use of eyes/nose/ears/senses, etc, etc, etc.

Both dogs indicated they marked the birds, maybe the faster dog overran the bird a little but HAD A MARK... (I've heard that marking is one of the primary importance?s in Derbies.)

To me as a judge DOG B sounded like it was fun to watch, pleasing to the eye - it showed style, desire, alertness, field awareness, courage, intelligence? That?s what you WANT to see in a dog.

Conversely, DOG A sounds like it lacked many of the traits that were mentioned above, except it had a mark on the bird? I don?t try to get into the minds of the dogs when I judge so I really would not concern myself as to whether the dog was being methodical (another term is K-Mart shopping, picking flowers, or piggy) or scared (heading to the gallows , death march)

I would just look at DOG A as lacking some of the desirable qualities that I look for when I judge.
 

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Dog B of course, but the real question is.
How much less accurate would dog B's Marking have to be before dog A was the winner? :wink:
After all Marking is of primary importance :!:
john
 

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B- Style wins in this case. Had dog B had to hunt all around gun station i would reconcider dog A as a better marker. Ive run under judges who would pick dog B no mater what kind of hunt , even if A pinned the marks. Sounds like your dog A is a real pig though so a small hunt by dog B would still win in my book.
 

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Mitch Patterson said:
In my mind, DOG B had better work...

First, marking is not JUST running (walking) to where the bird is... Marking ability is a blend of desire, trained responses, responses to elements, prey drive, awareness, ability to focus, memory, use of eyes/nose/ears/senses, etc, etc, etc.

Both dogs indicated they marked the birds, maybe the faster dog overran the bird a little but HAD A MARK... (I've heard that marking is one of the primary importance?s in Derbies.)

To me as a judge DOG B sounded like it was fun to watch, pleasing to the eye - it showed style, desire, alertness, field awareness, courage, intelligence? That?s what you WANT to see in a dog.


Conversely, DOG A sounds like it lacked many of the traits that were mentioned above, except it had a mark on the bird? I don?t try to get into the minds of the dogs when I judge so I really would not concern myself as to whether the dog was being methodical (another term is K-Mart shopping, picking flowers, or piggy) or scared (heading to the gallows , death march)

I would just look at DOG A as lacking some of the desirable qualities that I look for when I judge.
Ditto.
 

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We all want to see a dog with style!
Though not the case in the example for this poll, I guess my question is ,in a DERBY,How far should Style carry a dog,when giving the placements, that obviously did not out mark another dog ?
John
 

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john fallon said:
We all want to see a dog with style!
Though not the case in the example for this poll, I guess my question is ,in a DERBY,How far should Style carry a dog,when giving the placements, that obviously did not out mark another dog ?
John
The way I see it is if the two dogs both pinned the marks then I'm going to give the nod to the dog who pins the marks with the most style. If the stylish dog had 7 out of 8 great marks and the piggy dog had 8 of 8 great marks then piggy wins over the stylish dog.
 

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I don't consider a dog that is going out to a mark at 3/4 speed to be piggish or lacking in style. Speed is a small part of what I look for factoring stlye. Nothing is said of how his attitude at the line is or what kind of focus. These factor in to the overall style of the dog.
He goes out at a good pace(3/4) speed under complete control and steps on each mark. Sounds a lot like 2 time NAFC Ram.

GD
 

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Golddogs said:
I don't consider a dog that is going out to a mark at 3/4 speed to be piggish or lacking in style. Speed is a small part of what I look for factoring stlye. Nothing is said of how his attitude at the line is or what kind of focus. These factor in to the overall style of the dog.
He goes out at a good pace(3/4) speed under complete control and steps on each mark. Sounds a lot like 2 time NAFC Ram.

GD
Good point Golddogs. I know of a few other 100 plus point All Age dogs that kind of fit this description as well. Speed can sometimes get a dog in trouble even though it's fun to watch. I have a blf that falls into this category. Her legs sometimes outrun her brain on marks and you better be really quick on the whistle running blinds. She's alot of fun to watch but sometimes nerve-wrecking to handle. Having said that I still prefer the dog that runs full-bore vs. a slower dog.
 

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Reading the description WITHOUT reading anything else into it AND having read the rulebooks of AKC field trials and several different org's hunt tests, I don't see how you can vote for A over B.
 

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Right now the score is 26 to 1. I'm betting the 1 is Golddogs. What a "shocker."

WAH - Who think 1/2 to 3/4 speed in the DERBY equates to 1/4 to 1/2 speed in all age. (If that's all he has in the derby, you better enjoy it while you can.)
 

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I voted for dog A, because ...

what is 'full speed' in MPH, FPS, etc. it doesn't exist ... maybe 3/4 as fast as dog B is as fast as dog A can go; as a judge you don't know. everybody else has been saying dog B has more style, which is purely subjective. If you define style as pure speed ... then OK, dog B wins. Personally, I like seeing the dogs think. It's fairly obvious which dogs are performing out of fear, they don't carry their tail as high, they don't walk to the line on thier toenails b/c they're not eager to retrieve, and they've usually eliminated themselves by the final series; I guess the point I'm trying to make is that style is far more than just speed, we weren't given enough info in the original post to make a judgment on style.

Even if we were, the fast dog, over-running & coming back to pick up the bird, gives me the impression "oh $#!+, there's the bird" as he streaks by, the other dog, although noticably slower, stopped on the birds, thereby demonstrating he knew exactly were bird fell the whole time.
 

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rjouben wrote:

If you define style as pure speed, then OK dog B wins.
I define it as the way the dog carries himself and goes about his business, from the time he leaves the holding blind to come to the running line, until he's through with the test and behind me on lead. Why? 'Cause that's the whole time the dog is under judgement.

The criteria for this question was black and white....no gray areas. All other things being equal, I'd have no problem placing dog A second....but Dog B goes home with the blue...in the Derby.

Golddogs wrote, with regard to Dog A:

Sounds a lot like 2 time NAFC Ram.
We're talking about the Derby, running dogs under 2 YOA, not seasoned veterans who by that time of their lives are on rimadyl, glucosamine, and no telling what else.

When they're that old, 3/4 speed might be the equivalent of hauling butt....

Keith Griffith
 

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B....That's the one I'm breeding to. These dogs give me enough reason for my hair to turn grey...or turn loose without having to wait all day for it to come back with the chicken. By the description in the original question, the B dog is a retrievin' maniac, and A can't compare. The marks were identical.
 
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I guess if I had to make a choice given the information provided I would vote for Dog B. However, as I judge I would be embarassed to have given a win to any dog with such a little degree of difference between their work. Another test would be in my mind for me to accurately find a winner between the two. How are you able to determine if a dog is running at 1/2 or 3/4 speed(maybe he is slightly injured)?

I agree with Mitch's accessment of what we would like to see in a dog's work. Every dog has different style in which they run. I acknowledge that one can detect as dog that running with a cautious gate. I also would not profess to know what runs through a dogs mind when they run. Running with great speed in not a sign of intellegence or effort. Running cautious is not a sign that a dog is not wanting to the work.
 

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The rulebook gives style a level of importance, especially in the Derby, IMHO.

If we'll just judge what we see, and not what we think, or "what if," we'll make the right decisions most of the time...

...again, IMHO... :wink: !

Keith Griffith
 
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